VOGONS


Reply 220 of 296, by RayeR

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I though that S3VBEFIX.COM bank booster is related to VBE 1.x banked modes and I just tried if it brings some speed up. If it doesn't work at all on VLB card never mind...

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Reply 221 of 296, by mkarcher

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RayeR wrote on 2024-08-22, 17:49:

I though that S3VBEFIX.COM bank booster is related to VBE 1.x banked modes and I just tried if it brings some speed up. If it doesn't work at all on VLB card never mind...

You are correct. While S3VBEFIX is mainly focussed on the VBE 2.0 implementation provided by S3, it can also run with limited functionality on VBE 1.2 cards. The bank booster is the same thing as S3SPDUP is supposed to do, and as I understand it, that mode of operation is technically impossible on VL cards operating the Trio64V+ in "LPB mode". The Trio64V+ also includes a "Trio64 compatible mode" which requires a different PCB layout. As I understand it, that mode would enable the use of the "bank booster" approach, with the limitation of either using a 32-bit memory interface (like the Trio32, limiting video memory to 1MB), or being limited to a (freely programmable) linear frame buffer locations below 128MB unless a more complicated decoding chip is integrated.

Anyway, as this mode of operation would require a different PCB layout, it appears to be out-of-scope in this thread.

Reply 222 of 296, by alxlab

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Hi Madao, this a looks like a really great project and thank you for sharing it 😀.

I was wondering if you were planning to to put the Kicad project files on github? Would make generating the JLCPCB bom and pick and place files easier for me. I'd also like to switch the tants to MLCs and maybe make the components easier to hand solder.

Reply 223 of 296, by youxiaojie

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dear friend, does trio64v2/dx support vesalocalbus?

Reply 225 of 296, by youxiaojie

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S3 Trio64V+ Compatibility
• Pin compatible with fast page/EDO DRAMs
• BIOS and driver backwards compatibility
I see this sentence

Reply 226 of 296, by youxiaojie

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why not use virge? it support 3d and more memory

Reply 227 of 296, by Madao

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youxiaojie wrote on 2024-10-07, 02:09:
S3 Trio64V+ Compatibility • Pin compatible with fast page/EDO DRAMs • BIOS and driver backwards compatibility I see this sentenc […]
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S3 Trio64V+ Compatibility
• Pin compatible with fast page/EDO DRAMs
• BIOS and driver backwards compatibility
I see this sentence

Trio64V2/DX compatibilty to Trio64V+ , but only on PCI card. (carefully reading of linked datasheet confirm: only PCI )
Not on VLB video card. I have tried with 86C775 (Trio64V2/DX ) long time ago, no success. (Mkarcher has try with Virge DX.. config strap is fixed to PCI only)

Virge is failed. few hardware bug of vlb interface (ghost write ) and no driver for VLB card is aviable (all Virge driver is written for Virge PCI )

But it is not impossible, someone should write driver for Virge VLB. (with workaround for VLB interface-bug )

Reply 228 of 296, by MisKonSem

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Madao wrote on 2024-07-06, 05:49:
Trio64V+ driver uses IO-Address and oldMMIO (this mode is aviable on PCI and VLB) Virge Win9x driver uses also newMMIO (onl […]
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Trio64V+ driver uses IO-Address and oldMMIO (this mode is aviable on PCI and VLB)
Virge Win9x driver uses also newMMIO (only PCI) , it doesn't work on VLB.

This is what, i am (partial) understanding after disassembling of driver. And mkracher told similar.

Virge BIOS from PCI doesn't work on VLB card, because VESA feartures connector is enabled and it is multiplexing with RAM. -> heavy artifical in pictures.
mkracher has patched Virge BIOS and it works. ( feartures connector is not on same pin, depents of PCI/VLB mode)

At point: VIRGE VLB is a disappointed adventure.
I can only told: write new driver (IO & "only" oldMMIO) with workaround on buggy VLB interface. We would added few hardware as 74F74. (or Workaround in software -> partial 0WS is possible)

Good afternoon. I see you are making a video card project on CL-GD5429 for ISA bus. I made the same one back in the spring of this year.

Reply 230 of 296, by youxiaojie

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MisKonSem wrote on 2024-10-20, 13:48:
Madao wrote on 2024-07-06, 05:49:
Trio64V+ driver uses IO-Address and oldMMIO (this mode is aviable on PCI and VLB) Virge Win9x driver uses also newMMIO (onl […]
Show full quote

Trio64V+ driver uses IO-Address and oldMMIO (this mode is aviable on PCI and VLB)
Virge Win9x driver uses also newMMIO (only PCI) , it doesn't work on VLB.

This is what, i am (partial) understanding after disassembling of driver. And mkracher told similar.

Virge BIOS from PCI doesn't work on VLB card, because VESA feartures connector is enabled and it is multiplexing with RAM. -> heavy artifical in pictures.
mkracher has patched Virge BIOS and it works. ( feartures connector is not on same pin, depents of PCI/VLB mode)

At point: VIRGE VLB is a disappointed adventure.
I can only told: write new driver (IO & "only" oldMMIO) with workaround on buggy VLB interface. We would added few hardware as 74F74. (or Workaround in software -> partial 0WS is possible)

Good afternoon. I see you are making a video card project on CL-GD5429 for ISA bus. I made the same one back in the spring of this year.

you have a typo in silk print:

enable 2MB
disable 2BM

Reply 231 of 296, by youxiaojie

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MisKonSem wrote on 2024-10-20, 13:48:
Madao wrote on 2024-07-06, 05:49:
Trio64V+ driver uses IO-Address and oldMMIO (this mode is aviable on PCI and VLB) Virge Win9x driver uses also newMMIO (onl […]
Show full quote

Trio64V+ driver uses IO-Address and oldMMIO (this mode is aviable on PCI and VLB)
Virge Win9x driver uses also newMMIO (only PCI) , it doesn't work on VLB.

This is what, i am (partial) understanding after disassembling of driver. And mkracher told similar.

Virge BIOS from PCI doesn't work on VLB card, because VESA feartures connector is enabled and it is multiplexing with RAM. -> heavy artifical in pictures.
mkracher has patched Virge BIOS and it works. ( feartures connector is not on same pin, depents of PCI/VLB mode)

At point: VIRGE VLB is a disappointed adventure.
I can only told: write new driver (IO & "only" oldMMIO) with workaround on buggy VLB interface. We would added few hardware as 74F74. (or Workaround in software -> partial 0WS is possible)

Good afternoon. I see you are making a video card project on CL-GD5429 for ISA bus. I made the same one back in the spring of this year.

will you use 16bit edo/fpm chip?

Reply 232 of 296, by Madao

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youxiaojie wrote on 2024-11-15, 09:07:
MisKonSem wrote on 2024-10-20, 13:48:
Madao wrote on 2024-07-06, 05:49:
Trio64V+ driver uses IO-Address and oldMMIO (this mode is aviable on PCI and VLB) Virge Win9x driver uses also newMMIO (onl […]
Show full quote

Trio64V+ driver uses IO-Address and oldMMIO (this mode is aviable on PCI and VLB)
Virge Win9x driver uses also newMMIO (only PCI) , it doesn't work on VLB.

This is what, i am (partial) understanding after disassembling of driver. And mkracher told similar.

Virge BIOS from PCI doesn't work on VLB card, because VESA feartures connector is enabled and it is multiplexing with RAM. -> heavy artifical in pictures.
mkracher has patched Virge BIOS and it works. ( feartures connector is not on same pin, depents of PCI/VLB mode)

At point: VIRGE VLB is a disappointed adventure.
I can only told: write new driver (IO & "only" oldMMIO) with workaround on buggy VLB interface. We would added few hardware as 74F74. (or Workaround in software -> partial 0WS is possible)

Good afternoon. I see you are making a video card project on CL-GD5429 for ISA bus. I made the same one back in the spring of this year.

will you use 16bit edo/fpm chip?

Yes, type like 416256 with dual CAS Input (not Dual WE type)
CD 542x supports only FPM DRAM

Reply 233 of 296, by Madao

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alright, working on Cirris Logic 542x ISA is finished.

https://github.com/matt1187/542x_ISA/blob/main/readme.md
Gerber file and csv file is published.

002 is not tested, but change is only other crystal footprint.
001 is tested, but it has xtal footprint, it is not nice for soldering-beginner. (hot air is needed )

Reply 234 of 296, by RayeR

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Does this cirrus supports VBE 2.0 LFB at least via some TSR? I don't have any such ISA card. I have diamond vision 928 1MB with a bit damaged PCB-repaired but this chip is not supported by S3VBE20 neither...

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Reply 235 of 296, by mockingbird

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Madao wrote on 2024-12-10, 09:26:
alright, working on Cirris Logic 542x ISA is finished. […]
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alright, working on Cirris Logic 542x ISA is finished.

https://github.com/matt1187/542x_ISA/blob/main/readme.md
Gerber file and csv file is published.

002 is not tested, but change is only other crystal footprint.
001 is tested, but it has xtal footprint, it is not nice for soldering-beginner. (hot air is needed )

Looks beautiful.

If anyone has an extra PCB from an order, I am interested if you're willing to spare one, thanks.

mslrlv.png
(Decommissioned:)
7ivtic.png

Reply 236 of 296, by zami555

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Another very nice project Madao. Congratulations and as big thanks for sharing the design with community.
On one side you enables others to build the card they have been searching/willing to find and could not buy or being able to afford to buy. But I personally thank you for sharing schematics, which helps to understand how the chipsets are interconnected with remaining parts, helping to gain knowledge necessary for repairing similar cards made in the past.

Reply 237 of 296, by cloverskull

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Wow, these are incredible, just noticing this thread now. I'm so impressed. I wish I had the skills to assemble one of these...

Reply 238 of 296, by rasz_pl

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Fantastic job! Cypress seems to have really sane 2 layer routing compared to Realteks 😮
Couple of notes. Im not poopooing on your hard work, just trying to put out some feedback:

1 you dont want ground noodles connected to real ground by a thin sliver on one side like between:
-PD0 PD1 PD2 PD3 PD4 PD5 PD6
-PD16 20 21 22 23
-three noodles under U5 especially the big one with "designed by MK 2024 (R)" printed over it
-tiny one under U11
-long big one under extended ISA slot
-A2_ISA 3 4 5 6 7
Ground that is not solid plane or densely (<wavelenght) stitched to solid plane no longer works as ground, it works like an antenna and amplifies interference. In the past guard traces were used before we had good modeling and understanding of magnetic propagation on the pcb, they only worked because putting one forced engineers to make more space between signal traces. All those dangling traces between signal tracks just resonate. https://resources.altium.com/p/guard-traces-hit-or-myth

2 whats the deal with 1 ohm R19? Cirrus says something about preventing latchup. Latchup is most likely to happen when input voltage exceeds supply, sudden supply spikes above safety margins is another cause. Putting those resistors will mitigate excessive voltage while making the card more susceptible of inputs 😐 Weird their MCA diagram has those, but ISA one doesnt? Its soo against my intuition, but probably worth it to follow their advice in the end 😐

- extended ISA slot, routing VCC straight to C33 (with another stupid 1ohm resistor) instead of going across the card wouldnt be breaking your ground plane over all those signals.

- omitting ISA oscillator input option will make ground more solid. Currently it leaves a dangling track with very high frequency clock crossing D8-18 and LA lines while breaking ground even when unused. Using ISA 14MHz was a cost cutting measure, nowadays useless.

- pin 159 oscillator goes in a weird around pad way making it go outside of ground plane coverage. Its especially critical to have uninterrupted ground under clock signals.

- separate/isolated analog/digital ground planes is also relic of the past, modern techniques show it doesnt work if it has to cut up ground into multiple islands. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD1jqFaA-uI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgJfOklQwNA Here for example it paradoxically messes with analog signal integrity by making those signals suddenly lose reference. Im fairly certain it only makes things worse for Cirrus recommended design.

- optional EEprom pins also degrade analog video signals by breaking their ground 🙁 best option would be routing those two tracks with jumpers over analog RGB.

- filtering analog VGA looks nice when placed in neat rows, but you got analog B crossing over analog G, and all analog tracks going under (Vias high impedance is really bad for such high speed analog signals) where they arent routed over ground plane. Hurts OCD, but asymmetrical component placement lets you leave Analog signal on top layer over healthy uninterrupted ground.

- H and V syncs cross each other with no ground underneath, swapping filtering sections around solves that.

- 3 amp fuse and thick tracks on Vga Pin 9 is overdoing it 😀 especially considering Cirrus is not even capable of reading Edid.

- looking at https://old.vgamuseum.info/component/content/ … edstar-pro.html it seems Cirrus chip doesnt mind swapping ram address pins around for easier routing. Card in the picture has Pin 153 routed to MA0, but 152 to MA7. This could simplify routing giving some room to stitch more grounds.

- also at lest one tantaum going on teh back would give some precious room between ram and teh chip.

- very long RAS1 under U13 U14 can be avoided, makes it look stupid but ground plane is healthier = shorter cuts = shorter return paths = less interference and crosstalk.

TLDR golden rule is every signal should be as close as possible, preferably over, a ground directly connecting source and destination of said signal with lowest impedance. Signals arent electrons, they are electromagnetic waves and need to close the loop. Closer the ground smaller the field, lower the ground impedance (bigger ground plane = better, traveling over multiple vias = bad) higher the frequency of mitigated interferences.

My attempt at implementing some of above on your 2 layer project with heavy overdoing it via stitched patches:

The attachment render_.png is no longer available
The attachment render_b.png is no longer available

4 layer board of that size would be what, $10 more? for infinitely healthier signal integrity and tons less work. If someone is interested in seeing pcb files I can upload somewhere.

https://github.com/raszpl/FIC-486-GAC-2-Cache-Module for AT&T Globalyst
https://github.com/raszpl/386RC-16 memory board
https://github.com/raszpl/440BX Reference Design adapted to Kicad
https://github.com/raszpl/Zenith_ZBIOS MFM-300 Monitor

Reply 239 of 296, by RayeR

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BTW doesn't someone rather want to make ATI Mach64 VGA for ISA?
IT seems the chip supports both ISA and PCI interfaces so there would be PCI cards chip donors.
It should support 2 or maybe 4MB VRAM and also VBE 2.0 via 64vbe v2.21 TSR ( https://dosdriver.de/graph.php 😀

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