VOGONS


First post, by Putas

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Having little experience before Socket 7, I need advice on the fastest build for the card. I will split my motherboard choices by sockets.

Socket 3 - the classic 486, the card was made for those. Has options for PODs and enhanced 486s. I guess something like AMD's "586" is the safest bet. But do we know whether POD does better?
Socket 4 - last native VLB. Any other motherboard than MB-5DVP? But the motherboard suffers from slow buses. To take advantage of those there seems to be only one CPU option: PODP5V133.
Socket 5 - proper Pentium class of CPUs, but hard-to-find VLB boards. The bus may not function conventionally - don't have the details in my head. What would be the best CPU choice here?

Secondary considerations:
Primary graphics adapter- do they make a difference?

Important reminder: bus overclocking is almost out of the question, because the card would overclock along with it. And my budget has limits.

Reply 1 of 15, by furan

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I spent a lot of time messing around with/reverse engineering/using the CGL SDK. Some thoughts:
- Bus speed matters during texture and geometry loads but how often those happen depends on the game. It would be interesting to measure this. I would not be surprised if slower VLB bus speeds caused slower level loading (textures) but didn't make a big difference during gameplay (maybe mostly geometry changes for games not scribbling on the framebuffer).
- Creative CGL drivers came in two flavors math-wise - games could program the API using either floating or fixed point. Depending on the games you want to play, you might get some advantage from the pentium for games that use floating point (FR games in Gona's game list here: https://gona.mactar.hu/3D/CGL/). There are a lot more games that use fixed point (IR drivers in the list). However, if GiGi uses IEE754 float internally then games that use fixed point would need to convert fixed to float when programming the chip, so floating point performance may still matter for them.
- Primary graphics adapter does not matter - it is set to a text mode and then the passthrough output is switched off (passthrough works similar to how it is done for a Voodoo/Voodoo2).

Reply 2 of 15, by chinny22

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This is an interesting read

Re: Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

POD has a very slight edge over the 5x86
PCI had a very slight edge over VLB so maybe Pentium class hardware is better even on VLB? A P60 is mentioned in the post.

Personally though I'd stick with 486 class hardware as VLB feels special, vs on a Pentium where it feels like a bottleneck, but that's just personal taste.

Reply 3 of 15, by vetz

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As Chinny22 referenced my post from 2013 about running the card on a Pentium Overdrive @ 100mhz you see that the performance varies from game to game. I don't think anyone have maxed out the 3D Blaster VLB yet.

I've acquired a TMC PAT54PV (Opti Socket 5 ISA/VLB) and I've gotten it to boot with a Pentium MMX 233 with L2 cache enabled (using a PowerLeap adapter). That should be one of the quickest setups you can get. Bastlermike got it running at 360 mhz using a Tillamook! Re: Tillamook 266MHz and working L2 cache?

It's dog slow though! I benched 35,4 in pcpbench vga mode. Just for reference, my Pentium Overdrive running the same videocard (S3 Vision864 2MB) at 100mhz in my Asus VL/I-486SV2GX4 got 27,8. The best performing Pentium 100 in a 430TX board with a Matrox card got 31,6. I haven't tested the 3D Blaster VLB in it yet.

3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)
3D Acceleration Comparison Episodes

Reply 4 of 15, by jheronimus

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Putas wrote on 2024-09-27, 05:41:

Socket 5 - proper Pentium class of CPUs, but hard-to-find VLB boards. The bus may not function conventionally - don't have the details in my head. What would be the best CPU choice here?

You may be able to add a CPU interposer, then your limit will be AMD K6-2@400. With a fast 2D card (like an Ark 1000VL or something) it will run Quake at 45FPS. Haven't tried 2+/3+ though.

Unfortunately, that may depend on the BIOS. In my case it had to be modded, otherwise I wouldn't be able to test this. And I wouldn't say this is a very stable configuration.

Also when picking a board for this project, I'd stick to boards with Award BIOS, because it seems to be okay with various Overdrives (my Supermicro VLB board with an AMI BIOS couldn't handle an Overdrive MMX or a Winchip IIRC), and Award is just easier to mod than AMI.

Without all that, your best and simplest option will be a Pentium 200. You'd need a plastic one, and you'll have to solder two pins together to lock its multiplier (no Soc5 VLB board can go above 2x). But it's a relatively simple mod, shown here.

Also I'd recommend adding heatsinks to all VRMs and maybe some case cooling. My board has completely new VRMs (old ones were salvaged) and heatsinks, I suspect a fast chip would put some stress on these.

Finally, it may be useful to have at least 1MB cache on a board like this (some boards even support 2MB, you can source 1Mbit SRAM chips from AliExpress), because otherwise memory performance will be very crappy compared to Intel stuff. With proper cache and low timings, an Opti Python board may compare to 430FX in a lot of benchmarks (as long as 430FX doesn't have PB cache).

And yeah, Pentium VLB stuff is completely pointless, but immensely interesting for "what if" scenarios. And I've never seen anyone benchmark a 3D Blaster with a proper Pentium, so if you do go that route, please share 😀

MR BIOS catalog
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Reply 5 of 15, by Putas

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So many great tips already. Thank you. Note that it might take me few years to do this.
Loading speeds and DOS modes are irrelevant to me, I would like to see the 3d acceleration maxed.
Now that I know the CPU interposer exists, can it work with K6-3+? I have those and wonder if multipliers could be switched on the fly, all the way up to 6x66? How would that compare with the Tillamook option?

Reply 6 of 15, by vetz

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Putas wrote on 2024-09-27, 08:30:

So many great tips already. Thank you. Note that it might take me few years to do this.
Loading speeds and DOS modes are irrelevant to me, I would like to see the 3d acceleration maxed.
Now that I know the CPU interposer exists, can it work with K6-3+? I have those and wonder if multipliers could be switched on the fly, all the way up to 6x66? How would that compare with the Tillamook option?

The TMC PAT54PV does not work with any K6 CPUs. I've tested that already. You probably would need to modify the BIOS for that, but it's AMI so it would be more difficult than with an Award board as jheronimus mentioned.

3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)
3D Acceleration Comparison Episodes

Reply 7 of 15, by jheronimus

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Putas wrote on 2024-09-27, 08:30:

Now that I know the CPU interposer exists, can it work with K6-3+? I have those and wonder if multipliers could be switched on the fly, all the way up to 6x66?

It can work with + chips, someone made a YouTube video about it with IIRC a Packard Bell computer using an Intel board. However, those boards are supported by late MR BIOS images released in the late 90s. Opti VLB boards only have a relatively ancient MR BIOS release that was made pre-K6, so it doesn't help things, and you're really left with hacking up AWARD stuff.

6x66 depends on the interposer (those have jumpers to set voltage and multiplier). Some interposers were made for regular Pentium chips and WinChips, so they won't support lower voltages. Jumper settings are usually silkscreened on the chip itself, so just look at those before you buy.

My Evergreen Spectra 400 came with a K6-2@400 chip, so of course it does 6x66.

I also vaguely remember that K6-400 interprets 2x as 6x, but could be wrong.

But like I've said, I'd just get a P200 and mod it — much cheaper and easier, will likely work on any board (because it's just a Pentium). At least it worked on my three VLB boards with different chipsets, so I'd say that's a valid selection 😁

MR BIOS catalog
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Reply 8 of 15, by BitWrangler

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jheronimus wrote on 2024-09-27, 09:26:

But like I've said, I'd just get a P200 and mod it — much cheaper and easier, will likely work on any board (because it's just a Pentium).

No. Many socket 5 boards do not have the power capacity to go beyond P166, some even cap at P150 or P133, the lack of BIOS updates to support faster CPU from a manufacturer that remained active into MMX times is usually a bit of a clue not to do it blindly. Do what you want with your own boards, but telling people it works on anything is irresponsible. If it is known to run on particular boards with some longer term use, like a couple of months gaming on it rather than only doing a POST, then yeah, tell ppl that.

If anyone wants to try a faster CPU than is mentioned on any official support documentation or in BIOS release notes, check your board out properly. YOUR board, there may have been manufacturing variations and component substitutions. Read the part numbers and manufacturers of your regulators, linear transistors and MOSFETs, look up the data sheet from the actual manufacturer, sometimes top end spec varies by a couple of amps, it's gonna live or die by a couple of amps so CHECK. Be very wary of recommended substitutions for the part, often they match kind of in the middle of the spec, not if the spec is used to it's limits. Be aware that the letters following the part number may be significant, a TIP33 may not be as good as a TIP33C for example.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 9 of 15, by jheronimus

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BitWrangler wrote on 2024-09-27, 11:33:

If it is known to run on particular boards with some longer term use, like a couple of months gaming on it rather than only doing a POST, then yeah, tell ppl that.

Tbf a message before that I did say you should worry about your VRMs when doing this, but yes, your advice is more comprehensive. And no, I did not "just get a POST" on my boards, it's more like a couple of years and a battery of benchmarks. But you're right, it doesn't mean every board will take this.

MR BIOS catalog
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Reply 10 of 15, by Putas

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*comes back from the Tillamook research rabbit hole*

Wow, there is always something new. What I got so far:
Socket 5 is the way for the best CPU. With as new as possible Award bios. The chipset should be Opti Premium.
That means 16-bit memory. I think a pair of 16 MB would be enough for anything the Blaster supports. 60 ns, right?
That means the CPUs will be quite memory bandwidth constrained. I expect K6-III to be the best, followed by Tilly. If those do not run, P54 it is. Or K5?
I should get the Powerleap IPS adapters. Very handy and circumvents the potential power delivery risks. Are there some newly made alternatives?

Reply 11 of 15, by DrAnthony

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Putas wrote on 2024-09-28, 08:33:
*comes back from the Tillamook research rabbit hole* […]
Show full quote

*comes back from the Tillamook research rabbit hole*

Wow, there is always something new. What I got so far:
Socket 5 is the way for the best CPU. With as new as possible Award bios. The chipset should be Opti Premium.
That means 16-bit memory. I think a pair of 16 MB would be enough for anything the Blaster supports. 60 ns, right?
That means the CPUs will be quite memory bandwidth constrained. I expect K6-III to be the best, followed by Tilly. If those do not run, P54 it is. Or K5?
I should get the Powerleap IPS adapters. Very handy and circumvents the potential power delivery risks. Are there some newly made alternatives?

Agreed. I'd avoid the K5 though. It's a fascinating architecture but was never really fully baked and ran quite hot for the level of performance and was VERY unbalanced in terms of integer performance (top notch) versus floating point (completely anemic).

Reply 12 of 15, by Putas

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jheronimus wrote on 2024-09-27, 09:26:
Putas wrote on 2024-09-27, 08:30:

Now that I know the CPU interposer exists, can it work with K6-3+? I have those and wonder if multipliers could be switched on the fly, all the way up to 6x66?

It can work with + chips, someone made a YouTube video about it with IIRC a Packard Bell computer using an Intel board. However, those boards are supported by late MR BIOS images released in the late 90s.

What would this Intel board be?

Reply 13 of 15, by jheronimus

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Putas wrote on 2024-09-30, 20:08:

What would this Intel board be?

Okay, I did find the video, and I was remembering wrong — it was a generic bAT board with an Intel chipset. The list of Intel (and just boards with Intel chipsets) supported by MR BIOS can be found in the MR BIOS catalog in my signature, on the "Intel" sheet.

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Reply 14 of 15, by Putas

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Stupid question warning!

For the first time, I was exploring the riser options of branded computers. The slots seem physically samey between generations. Which made me think if one buys let's say IBM Aptiva Pentium motherboard and sticks in a riser made for 486 with VLB and the thing does not explode, it still wouldn't work right? The chipset has to do something the 486 CPUs were doing for the VLB to work?

Reply 15 of 15, by BitWrangler

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I know what you mean through having some casual familiarity with the PC330 line and their "select-a-bus" thing. IIRC the VLB riser is passive, whereas the PCI has a PCI hub on it. However, there must be something involved on the board to drive the lines.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.