douglar wrote on 2024-11-20, 01:00:

Oh! In that case, is the answer a PS/2 model 30 ?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PS/2_Model_30

Possibly, if I found a cheap one. However I think there is no turbo button, so it won't be good for games that require 4.77mhz processor.

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-20, 03:01:

I have an IBM PS/2 Model 30, and it indeed has an 8086 and works great with PS/2 mice and keyboards. I’ve even tried my 2023 Unicomp New Model M keyboard, PS/2 variant, and it works. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work with my Belkin KVM. All my other PS/2 pcs work with that KVM.

Be aware these machines can be a bit tricky. Mostly because of proprietary floppy connectors and the fact you need the floppy to initialize the cmos if it’s been cleared. I use a 1.44mb more modern floppy drive (works as a 720k) with a custom connector adapter. I also have a xtide bios enabled cf ide adapter acting as a hard drive. Works well, but I got lucky in the only issues were the hard drive and floppy drive. Even the original rechargeable battery still works and retains charge.

So yeah that can work with PS/2 stuff, just not likely with a KVM

Ah, yeah, the proprietary nature of these and the fact that hardware issues are common is a concern. The lack of support for my KVM would also be a deal-breaker I think. Though I guess a workaround could be to use a mechanical switch. I think you can get rotary switches that can connect many cables at the same time. Maybe make a custom switch box that routes the kb/mouse either to the KVM or to the IBM?

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-20, 03:07:

Correction, all my other PS/2 peripheral capable pcs work with my Belkin KVM. I only own the one PS/2 PC 🙂

By the way. What games do you play on your 286? Just trying to work out if it's actually worth the expense to me. I am not sure what good games there are that only work on a 286. I have looked at various lists on vogons and youtube and most of the usual recommendations work fine on my Pentium:

Early Apogee platformers, Jill of the jungle, Lemmings, Prince of Persia, Wolf3D, many of the Sierra and Lucas arts point and click titles.

Obviously there are lists like this:

https://www.mobygames.com/attributes/attribute/65/

But that doesn't tell me if they will fail to work on faster hardware or if they are even worth playing.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2024-11-20, 09:26:

By the way. What games do you play on your 286? Just trying to work out if it's actually worth the expense to me. I am not sure […]
Show full quote

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-20, 03:07:

Correction, all my other PS/2 peripheral capable pcs work with my Belkin KVM. I only own the one PS/2 PC 🙂

By the way. What games do you play on your 286? Just trying to work out if it's actually worth the expense to me. I am not sure what good games there are that only work on a 286. I have looked at various lists on vogons and youtube and most of the usual recommendations work fine on my Pentium:

Early Apogee platformers, Jill of the jungle, Lemmings, Prince of Persia, Wolf3D, many of the Sierra and Lucas arts point and click titles.

Obviously there are lists like this:

https://www.mobygames.com/attributes/attribute/65/

But that doesn't tell me if they will fail to work on faster hardware or if they are even worth playing.

Mirrrorsoft Tetris from 1987 doesn't works at his legit speed in a pentium mmx with the slowest configuration possible, at least in my own experience.

mannycalavera wrote on 2024-11-20, 13:07:

Mirrrorsoft Tetris from 1987 doesn't works at his legit speed in a pentium mmx with the slowest configuration possible, at least in my own experience.

I may have tried that game on it. Certainly it was tetris that I tried but not sure who made it. It was instant death, as the board filled with blocks faster than I can blink. Lol.

Yeah, thinking about it, I have looked at example games that people are playing on 286 PCs. Apart from the previously mentioned popular titles that were released in the 90s (and will happen to work fine on a slowed MMX), I think most of the games look rather too simple for my tastes.

Of course there are likely some games from that period that I will want to play, that will be too fast on the slowed MMX. I am honestly torn. Part of me wants a 286. Part of me thinks it will be more hassle and money than it is worth. Prices on ebay seem rather high for these.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2024-11-20, 13:43:

Of course there are likely some games from that period that I will want to play, that will be too fast on the slowed MMX. I am honestly torn. Part of me wants a 286. Part of me thinks it will be more hassle and money than it is worth. Prices on ebay seem rather high for these.

My own experience with building 286 machines (including recreating our first computer ever) was that once the nostalgia itch was scratched, I didn't have much use for it beyond that.

This is where you need to figure out was is driving that want. If it's just to play certain games, as you said, the games you want to play can run on faster systems. If it's just the nostalgia of using a 286 again, once that is satisfied you may find yourself not really wanting to use it anymore.

There are also some other options than just a pure 286. Some 386 and 486 systems can be natively throttled to 286 speeds. For example, I have a 486 DX-33 that can throttle to an 8MHz 286 using the turbo button plus L1 cache disabling.

There are also Tandy 1000 XT/286 hybrids (e.g. Tandy 1000 TL series) that are interesting machines. They include native Tandy sound support, which is useful on a variety of games including original Sierra adventure games. This can offer better sound than just the PC speaker.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-11-20, 14:19:

My own experience with building 286 machines (including recreating our first computer ever) was that once the nostalgia itch was scratched, I didn't have much use for it beyond that.

Yes, that is what I fear. I will probably play with it for a bit then never use it after that. Though I guess, as long as it doesnt die, I should be able to sell it with little to no loss of money.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-11-20, 14:19:

This is where you need to figure out was is driving that want. If it's just to play certain games, as you said, the games you want to play can run on faster systems. If it's just the nostalgia of using a 286 again, once that is satisfied you may find yourself not really wanting to use it anymore.

I think it is the games that I want to play more. I do love tinkering with hardware also, but only trying different combinations of hardware. I don't really have an interest or ability in trying to fix broken hardware. The older and more proprietary the hardware is, the more likely I will hit a problem I can't solve.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-11-20, 14:19:

There are also some other options than just a pure 286. Some 386 and 486 systems can be natively throttled to 286 speeds. For example, I have a 486 DX-33 that can throttle to an 8MHz 286 using the turbo button plus L1 cache disabling.

There are also Tandy 1000 XT/286 hybrids (e.g. Tandy 1000 TL series) that are interesting machines. They include native Tandy sound support, which is useful on a variety of games including original Sierra adventure games. This can offer better sound than just the PC speaker.

Yes, a 486 that can be slowed to 286 levels is a good shout. I am wondering if there are ways to make socket 7 motherboards use lower clockspeeds than the defaults. In 386 PCs you could change a Crystal. Doesn't seem to be the case with socket 7, as you can change clockspeed with jumpers. I did find some undocumented frequencies on my motherboard by using different jumper combinations. I think 55mhz was one. I forget the other.

There's this board, Lucky Star 5V-1A / 5V-1B review - scaling form XT levels to K6-II levels which has interesting options.

BitWrangler wrote on 2024-11-20, 16:07:

There's this board, Lucky Star 5V-1A / 5V-1B review - scaling form XT levels to K6-II levels which has interesting options.

Ah. Interesting. I will have to try all combinations on my motherboard to see what it can do. Looking at my benchmark notes it seems that I previously found 55mhz and 62.5mhz. Or at least that my MMX reported being 110Mhz and 125Mhz.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2024-11-20, 09:26:

By the way. What games do you play on your 286? Just trying to work out if it's actually worth the expense to me. I am not sure […]
Show full quote

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-20, 03:07:

Correction, all my other PS/2 peripheral capable pcs work with my Belkin KVM. I only own the one PS/2 PC 🙂

By the way. What games do you play on your 286? Just trying to work out if it's actually worth the expense to me. I am not sure what good games there are that only work on a 286. I have looked at various lists on vogons and youtube and most of the usual recommendations work fine on my Pentium:

Early Apogee platformers, Jill of the jungle, Lemmings, Prince of Persia, Wolf3D, many of the Sierra and Lucas arts point and click titles.

Obviously there are lists like this:

https://www.mobygames.com/attributes/attribute/65/

But that doesn't tell me if they will fail to work on faster hardware or if they are even worth playing.

For my PS/2 Model 30 8086 version? Infocom games, Crescent Hawk’s inception, Starflight 1&2, Might and Magic,Bard’s Tale, Ultima 4, basically games I played from ‘87-89 on my dad’s Tandy 1000 SX.

Most of those games run too fast on later hardware. I’ve slowed down some socket 7 cpus, but the slowdown varies based on the cpu instructions used in a part of the game. It’s a better experience with actual period-correct hardware oftentimes.

Another option, a Pocket 8086 can work. It comes with dongles to connect to a VGA monitor and PS/2 keyboard/mouse (might work with kvm too as they emulate the PS/2 interface on it)

Best part of it IMO is it can use an 8088, 8086, V20/V30 all the way up to 10Mhz. AFAIK its the only XT class computer to ever support both the 8 bit and 16 bit bus cpus in the same socket. I used mine to compare the 8088 to the 8086 at 4.77Mhz, its about a 30% gain in performance, at least on benchmarks. A 4.77Mhz 8088 to a 10Mhz V30 is a perf swing of 3-4x, a nice range IMO. Nifty device, IMO

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-11-20, 14:19:

My own experience with building 286 machines (including recreating our first computer ever) was that once the nostalgia itch was […]
Show full quote

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2024-11-20, 13:43:

Of course there are likely some games from that period that I will want to play, that will be too fast on the slowed MMX. I am honestly torn. Part of me wants a 286. Part of me thinks it will be more hassle and money than it is worth. Prices on ebay seem rather high for these.

My own experience with building 286 machines (including recreating our first computer ever) was that once the nostalgia itch was scratched, I didn't have much use for it beyond that.

This is where you need to figure out was is driving that want. If it's just to play certain games, as you said, the games you want to play can run on faster systems. If it's just the nostalgia of using a 286 again, once that is satisfied you may find yourself not really wanting to use it anymore.

There are also some other options than just a pure 286. Some 386 and 486 systems can be natively throttled to 286 speeds. For example, I have a 486 DX-33 that can throttle to an 8MHz 286 using the turbo button plus L1 cache disabling.

There are also Tandy 1000 XT/286 hybrids (e.g. Tandy 1000 TL series) that are interesting machines. They include native Tandy sound support, which is useful on a variety of games including original Sierra adventure games. This can offer better sound than just the PC speaker.

I find real 80286 PCs quite interesting, though.

The original IBM PC/AT was a real 16-Bit computer, for example.
The PC/XT still was an 8-Bit design, as far as motherboard hardware was considered.

ISA bus and AT-Bus are natively being supported, more or less. Depends on how the chipset interferes, if it is used.

The 80286 also is free of V86, so hardware solutions for UMBs and EMS must be used.
Which are less of a headaches in terms of compatibilty, once acquired. ;)

Looking back, I'm somewhat grateful to initially have missed out on 386+ and all the headaches that came with V86 memory managers.

Not that they're all bad (Helix is cool, I think), but stability was better doing things the proper way.
Which had been a necessity on an pure 16-Bit system.

Windows 3.1x in Standard-Mode ran rock-solid, too.
The krnl286 didn't load any VXDs and didn't virtualize PS/2 keyboard and mouse.
I barely had seen blue screens back then, whereas it was more common to users of 386 Enhanced Mode (or 386 Enchanted Mode, as I used to joke). :D

PS: That being said, I've collected quite a few 386 components for later life.
The 80386 was the brother of the 80286 and made by same team.
Some rumors even say that the 80386 design is older than that of the 80286, but couldn't be made a reality in early 80s.
That's why the 80286 was released as we know it. Not sure if it's true, but it's a fascinating thought!

Also, last but not least, the 80386 was very legendary in the 80s.
The Compaq Deskpro 386 introduced it in 1985 and many higher end software products supported it. Such as Windows /386, for example! 😂

Seriously, though, 386 extenders were a thing by turn of the decade.
Profesional Windows 3.0 applications had used Watcom's Win386 extender early on and required a 386 PC, thus.

Thinking about this, it seems very funny that many of us nowadays aim to run Windows 3.0 in Real-Mode on an PC/XT (me included).
Back in 1990, IT people would have either thought we're crazy or just poor.

Because, serious Windows 3 software development had required a hot-rod 286, at least.
The compiling times alone were very long due to be being very CPU intensive for commercial applications.
A 386 with lots of cache, a quick HDD and a large HDD software cache was heartly welcome!

Just confirmed, on my Pocket 8086, my Belkin KVM works properly for my PS/2 keyboard but not the mouse. Couldn’t get the mouse to work but that might be due to the emulated mouse feature it has being on for some reason.

Update, the mouse works too. PCGEOS was being picky about its driver. Didn’t like a directly plugged in mouse either. Likely have to tell it to be configured differently. Mouse works fine in dos Edit with KVM in between, meaning full kb and mouse with KVM with the pocket 8086

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-21, 04:26:

Update, the mouse works too. PCGEOS was being picky about its driver. Didn’t like a directly plugged in mouse either. Likely have to tell it to be configured differently. Mouse works fine in dos Edit with KVM in between, meaning full kb and mouse with KVM with the pocket 8086

Hmm. That's very good news. I have been tempted by both the Pocket 8086 and Pocket 386 portables. The lack of full soundblaster sound on the latter is unfortunate. FM only I believe.

I still may get them, as they are very cool, but I am very unsure how much I will use them. Hence my hesitation.

^Both PC GEOS and Windows 3 have good use for EMS, by the way.
Windows 3.0 can use both FM and Sound Blaster, even in Real-Mode.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2024-11-21, 12:29:

That was the main reason I got mine. If (and I suspected and it turned out) I used it for a while and then stopped, I was ok wit […]
Show full quote

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-21, 04:26:

I still may get them, as they are very cool, but I am very unsure how much I will use them. Hence my hesitation.

That was the main reason I got mine. If (and I suspected and it turned out) I used it for a while and then stopped, I was ok with the price compared with most 80’s alternatives. It takes up little space.

It was also my backup in case I couldn’t get the PS/2 working. The seller hadn’t gotten it to fully boot prior to selling it to me.

I’m seriously considering getting a NuXT motherboard to build a proper XT class PC in a tower case and modern parts, for the same reason despite the cost. The PS/2 works now, but how much longer will a 37 year old machine go before something else breaks? 🙂

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-21, 04:06:

Just confirmed, on my Pocket 8086, my Belkin KVM works properly for my PS/2 keyboard but not the mouse. Couldn’t get the mouse to work but that might be due to the emulated mouse feature it has being on for some reason.

This is an interesting idea for a cheap way to get XT/AT performance, what KVM do you have?

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-21, 04:26:

Update, the mouse works too. PCGEOS was being picky about its driver. Didn’t like a directly plugged in mouse either. Likely have to tell it to be configured differently. Mouse works fine in dos Edit with KVM in between, meaning full kb and mouse with KVM with the pocket 8086

OK. You convinced me. I have bought a Pocket 8086. Seems like a cool piece of history to have, even if I don't use it much.

exiled350 wrote on 2024-11-21, 16:47:

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-21, 04:06:

Just confirmed, on my Pocket 8086, my Belkin KVM works properly for my PS/2 keyboard but not the mouse. Couldn’t get the mouse to work but that might be due to the emulated mouse feature it has being on for some reason.

This is an interesting idea for a cheap way to get XT/AT performance, what KVM do you have?

Gah don’t know why I thought it was a Belkin. It’s a Linksys KVM2KIT. Just checked the label. I got one about 20 years ago and another last year when I needed another KVM (off of ebay). Both have worked great with my older PCs.