megatron-uk wrote on 2024-12-17, 15:38:

Simon the Sorcerer actually has an odd MIDI soundtrack - with functionality for both GM (i.e. SC-55) and Roland MT-32 - an earlier device than the SC-55, and something that isn't really replicated correctly by any other hardware MIDI device. Often games with MT-32 optimised soundtracks actually programme new sounds into the device when the game loads... you won't find a similar playback on anything other than an MT-32 (or equivalent Roland device: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_MT-32).

My guess is that you've played it with the GM soundtrack using a cut-down version of the Roland soft-synth previously. It won't sound massively different on a real SC-55 in that case. Perhaps you've heard the MT-32 version elsewhere? It would sound quite a bit different to the GM mode.

Yeah, I’m aware of the differences between the two; I’ve given them a listen. Well, the MT-32 briefly. I also tried the MT-32 emulation on the SC. I’ll have to attach a video of the two soundtracks I’ve heard. I’m just a bit unsure why I got the correct SC version on my Windows 10, but not the 98. Unless you need to have basic GM to begin with…? My 98 sound card doesn’t have any at all as it’s an ISA card with only MPU-401 support

Welcome to the rabbit hole. If you only want to make a single purchase for a MIDI module, consider an Roland SC-88 (VL or otherwise doesn't matter). This will provide you with maximum polyphony and an SC-55 fallback. There is also an MT-32 map, but it's not very compatible with games. You'll need to pair it with a sound card that has an intelligent mode MIDI interface. No Sound Blaster supports this, but there is a TSR available to make up for it. The only thing you're really missing is a proper MT-32.

If you want to go the cheapest route, get a PicoGUS. It's a single ISA sound card that emulates all of this hardware in one. Otherwise you'll have to spend a lot of money chasing a perfect setup that arguably doesn't exist. There will always be compromises.

If you absolutely want at least one MIDI synthesizer to play with on the cheap, the Roland SC-7 can't be beat. It sounds almost identical to the SC-55, which covers most GM use cases. Even if you're missing some polyphony versus the SC-88, you would be hard pressed to notice it. Especially if you have nothing to compare it to. The SC-7 seems to handle dropped polyphony better than the SC-55 in my testing, so it's a good compromise.

Sooo, correct me if I’m wrong here, but if you’re using a sound card that has basic GM capabilities, and you hook up an SC-55, do they ‘stack’? Do you get more polyphony’s/instrument samples or something?
I’m just trying to work out why the GM in the Simon the Sorcerer games sounds like what I’m familiar with as though using GS Wavetable Synth, rather than true SC-55.

Admittedly, the true SC-55 I get on my main PC with Simon is being played with ScummVM, although no fancy settings are selected, I don’t think.

Because the GS soft synth in Windows is more than likely based on a cut down version of the Roland samples.

megatron-uk wrote on 2024-12-18, 14:04:

Because the GS soft synth in Windows is more than likely based on a cut down version of the Roland samples.

The samples sounds crappy and there is no working FX engine. See Re: [RELEASE] Nuked-SC55, low-level Roland SC-55 series emulator announcement

IMHO, it sounds so crappy on some MIDI tracks that I suspect that someone hearing it for the first time without knowing what actual Roland GS hardware (at the time) sounds like might actually potentially have gotten a false bad impression of Roland products.

This is the music quality I’ve heard with Simon and the SC-55. I’m able to get this with ScummVM on Windows 10, too.

https://youtu.be/ivPhAz-hdNU?si=MUTum-O3-Wmlc1Vl

The GM I get on my 98 PC isn’t like that. It’s still great, but not what I was expecting to get. Is the music from that video due to Intelligent Mode? I’ve seen that phrase knocking around a bit.
I mean, my Yamaha ISA card has MPU-401 support. The onboard sound doesn’t have the option for GS Wavetable Synth, so it’s about the same as I’m getting with the SC-55, just a bit inferior in quality. Or would I need a PCI sound card that supports GS Wavetable Synth? Would it still need MPU-401 support for the SC to work?

Thanks

Using the SC-55 on DOS games without emulation needs MPU-401 support to work, regardless of whether you are running within Windows or not. The Yamaha ISA sound card that you have doesn't have Intelligent Mode (Simon the Sorcerer does use it), but as mentioned before, SoftMPU can get around this.

As for the notorious soft synth from Microsoft, don't bother with it at all.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2024-12-18, 19:34:

Using the SC-55 on DOS games without emulation needs MPU-401 support to work, regardless of whether you are running within Windows or not. The Yamaha ISA sound card that you have doesn't have Intelligent Mode (Simon the Sorcerer does use it), but as mentioned before, SoftMPU can get around this.

As for the notorious soft synth from Microsoft, don't bother with it at all.

I do remember SoftMPU being mentioned. I'll have to take a look into that. Thanks for the reminder. 😀

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-12-18, 18:26:

This is the music quality I’ve heard with Simon and the SC-55. I’m able to get this with ScummVM on Windows 10, too. […]
Show full quote

This is the music quality I’ve heard with Simon and the SC-55. I’m able to get this with ScummVM on Windows 10, too.

https://youtu.be/ivPhAz-hdNU?si=MUTum-O3-Wmlc1Vl

The GM I get on my 98 PC isn’t like that. It’s still great, but not what I was expecting to get. Is the music from that video due to Intelligent Mode? I’ve seen that phrase knocking around a bit.
I mean, my Yamaha ISA card has MPU-401 support. The onboard sound doesn’t have the option for GS Wavetable Synth, so it’s about the same as I’m getting with the SC-55, just a bit inferior in quality. Or would I need a PCI sound card that supports GS Wavetable Synth? Would it still need MPU-401 support for the SC to work?

Thanks

Intelligent mode has nothing to do with how the music sounds. It is an operating mode that the original MPU-401 had, but that most clones did not . It was used by some early games, which required an actual Roland MPU-401 (or very close clone) for MIDI music to work at all. Most later MPU-401 clones on sound cards like yours only support the MPU-401's "dumb" or UART mode, which is what most games used . Intelligent mode reduced CPU usage, AFAICR, but was pretty much pointless once PCs became fast enough.

Microsoft's GS Wavetable Synth sounds the same on all sound cards it can run on. It will never sound better than an SC-55 (feel free to try to to prove me wrong), so what is the point in getting it to work on a retro machine if you already have an SC-55 ?
IMHO, Microsoft's GS Wavetable Synth is just not worth it. Low quality samples, including some with very audible aliasing and lack of sound effects (Chorus, Reverb) don't don't do it any favors.

Simon the Sorcerer's music was authored for the MT-32 , not the SC-55. That conversion to SC-55 was made by a third party AFAICT and that is what that video is playing back. It is not representative of what a Roland SC-55 is capable of . IMHO, it is pretty much useless as comparison material for the Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth vs a real SC-55 (or a close emulator). I prefer the MT-32 sound track in this case, personally.

The Simon the Sorcerer MT-32 soundtrack can be found on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query= … +Sorcerer+MT-32 .

And here's a sample MIDI track played back on a Roland SC-55 and then on Microsoft's GS Wavetable SW Synth .

onestop.mid on Roland SC-55 :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sUUX3R8sEw

onestop.mid Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fxUxU3Wu1w

darry wrote on 2024-12-18, 21:41:

Intelligent mode has nothing to do with how the music sounds. It is an operating mode that the original MPU-401 had, but that m […]
Show full quote

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-12-18, 18:26:

This is the music quality I’ve heard with Simon and the SC-55. I’m able to get this with ScummVM on Windows 10, too. […]
Show full quote

This is the music quality I’ve heard with Simon and the SC-55. I’m able to get this with ScummVM on Windows 10, too.

https://youtu.be/ivPhAz-hdNU?si=MUTum-O3-Wmlc1Vl

The GM I get on my 98 PC isn’t like that. It’s still great, but not what I was expecting to get. Is the music from that video due to Intelligent Mode? I’ve seen that phrase knocking around a bit.
I mean, my Yamaha ISA card has MPU-401 support. The onboard sound doesn’t have the option for GS Wavetable Synth, so it’s about the same as I’m getting with the SC-55, just a bit inferior in quality. Or would I need a PCI sound card that supports GS Wavetable Synth? Would it still need MPU-401 support for the SC to work?

Thanks

Intelligent mode has nothing to do with how the music sounds. It is an operating mode that the original MPU-401 had, but that most clones did not . It was used by some early games, which required an actual Roland MPU-401 (or very close clone) for MIDI music to work at all. Most later MPU-401 clones on sound cards like yours only support the MPU-401's "dumb" or UART mode, which is what most games used . Intelligent mode reduced CPU usage, AFAICR, but was pretty much pointless once PCs became fast enough.

Microsoft's GS Wavetable Synth sounds the same on all sound cards it can run on. It will never sound better than an SC-55 (feel free to try to to prove me wrong), so what is the point in getting it to work on a retro machine if you already have an SC-55 ?
IMHO, Microsoft's GS Wavetable Synth is just not worth it. Low quality samples, including some with very audible aliasing and lack of sound effects (Chorus, Reverb) don't don't do it any favors.

Simon the Sorcerer's music was authored for the MT-32 , not the SC-55. That conversion to SC-55 was made by a third party AFAICT and that is what that video is playing back. It is not representative of what a Roland SC-55 is capable of . IMHO, it is pretty much useless as comparison material for the Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth vs a real SC-55 (or a close emulator). I prefer the MT-32 sound track in this case, personally.

The Simon the Sorcerer MT-32 soundtrack can be found on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query= … +Sorcerer+MT-32 .

And here's a sample MIDI track played back on a Roland SC-55 and then on Microsoft's GS Wavetable SW Synth .

onestop.mid on Roland SC-55 :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sUUX3R8sEw

onestop.mid Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fxUxU3Wu1w

I like how music sounds with the Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth. That's what I grew up with and that's what I used with Simon the Sorcerer when I was a kid. But yes, it does sound better, and it is much better with the SC-55. So that's a conversion in that video I linked then? I wonder how that was done? Again, I can achieve the same result with ScummVM, and that was without any additional options checked, or soundfonts added etc. I'm guessing that was what was used. I can't access the original site they're from; the link is dead it seems.

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-12-18, 22:02:

darry wrote on 2024-12-18, 21:41:

Intelligent mode has nothing to do with how the music sounds. It is an operating mode that the original MPU-401 had, but that m […]
Show full quote

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-12-18, 18:26:

This is the music quality I’ve heard with Simon and the SC-55. I’m able to get this with ScummVM on Windows 10, too. […]
Show full quote

This is the music quality I’ve heard with Simon and the SC-55. I’m able to get this with ScummVM on Windows 10, too.

https://youtu.be/ivPhAz-hdNU?si=MUTum-O3-Wmlc1Vl

The GM I get on my 98 PC isn’t like that. It’s still great, but not what I was expecting to get. Is the music from that video due to Intelligent Mode? I’ve seen that phrase knocking around a bit.
I mean, my Yamaha ISA card has MPU-401 support. The onboard sound doesn’t have the option for GS Wavetable Synth, so it’s about the same as I’m getting with the SC-55, just a bit inferior in quality. Or would I need a PCI sound card that supports GS Wavetable Synth? Would it still need MPU-401 support for the SC to work?

Thanks

Intelligent mode has nothing to do with how the music sounds. It is an operating mode that the original MPU-401 had, but that most clones did not . It was used by some early games, which required an actual Roland MPU-401 (or very close clone) for MIDI music to work at all. Most later MPU-401 clones on sound cards like yours only support the MPU-401's "dumb" or UART mode, which is what most games used . Intelligent mode reduced CPU usage, AFAICR, but was pretty much pointless once PCs became fast enough.

Microsoft's GS Wavetable Synth sounds the same on all sound cards it can run on. It will never sound better than an SC-55 (feel free to try to to prove me wrong), so what is the point in getting it to work on a retro machine if you already have an SC-55 ?
IMHO, Microsoft's GS Wavetable Synth is just not worth it. Low quality samples, including some with very audible aliasing and lack of sound effects (Chorus, Reverb) don't don't do it any favors.

Simon the Sorcerer's music was authored for the MT-32 , not the SC-55. That conversion to SC-55 was made by a third party AFAICT and that is what that video is playing back. It is not representative of what a Roland SC-55 is capable of . IMHO, it is pretty much useless as comparison material for the Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth vs a real SC-55 (or a close emulator). I prefer the MT-32 sound track in this case, personally.

The Simon the Sorcerer MT-32 soundtrack can be found on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query= … +Sorcerer+MT-32 .

And here's a sample MIDI track played back on a Roland SC-55 and then on Microsoft's GS Wavetable SW Synth .

onestop.mid on Roland SC-55 :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sUUX3R8sEw

onestop.mid Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fxUxU3Wu1w

I like how music sounds with the Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth. That's what I grew up with and that's what I used with Simon the Sorcerer when I was a kid. But yes, it does sound better, and it is much better with the SC-55. So that's a conversion in that video I linked then? I wonder how that was done? Again, I can achieve the same result with ScummVM, and that was without any additional options checked, or soundfonts added etc. I'm guessing that was what was used. I can't access the original site they're from; the link is dead it seems.

I can't speak as to how that particular one was converted, but it is not an exact science, manual tweaking is necessary for optimal results and compromise will often need to be made. For example, since General MIDI has a fixed palette of 128 instruments, whereas the MT-32 allows for custom defined instruments.

AFAICR, to be able to use the GS Wavetable Softsynth, you need to have WDM drivers installed for your sound card. The sound card does not need to be a PCI one.

There are significant caveats to using WDM audio drivers. Among other things, if I am not mistaken, the FM synth (OPL3) will not be accessible to DOS applications.

EDIT: See https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-har … udio-components for more info on WDM drivers.

darry wrote on 2024-12-19, 00:27:

I can't speak as to how that particular one was converted, but it is not an exact science, manual tweaking is necessary for opti […]
Show full quote

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-12-18, 22:02:

darry wrote on 2024-12-18, 21:41:

Intelligent mode has nothing to do with how the music sounds. It is an operating mode that the original MPU-401 had, but that m […]
Show full quote

Intelligent mode has nothing to do with how the music sounds. It is an operating mode that the original MPU-401 had, but that most clones did not . It was used by some early games, which required an actual Roland MPU-401 (or very close clone) for MIDI music to work at all. Most later MPU-401 clones on sound cards like yours only support the MPU-401's "dumb" or UART mode, which is what most games used . Intelligent mode reduced CPU usage, AFAICR, but was pretty much pointless once PCs became fast enough.

Microsoft's GS Wavetable Synth sounds the same on all sound cards it can run on. It will never sound better than an SC-55 (feel free to try to to prove me wrong), so what is the point in getting it to work on a retro machine if you already have an SC-55 ?
IMHO, Microsoft's GS Wavetable Synth is just not worth it. Low quality samples, including some with very audible aliasing and lack of sound effects (Chorus, Reverb) don't don't do it any favors.

Simon the Sorcerer's music was authored for the MT-32 , not the SC-55. That conversion to SC-55 was made by a third party AFAICT and that is what that video is playing back. It is not representative of what a Roland SC-55 is capable of . IMHO, it is pretty much useless as comparison material for the Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth vs a real SC-55 (or a close emulator). I prefer the MT-32 sound track in this case, personally.

The Simon the Sorcerer MT-32 soundtrack can be found on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query= … +Sorcerer+MT-32 .

And here's a sample MIDI track played back on a Roland SC-55 and then on Microsoft's GS Wavetable SW Synth .

onestop.mid on Roland SC-55 :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sUUX3R8sEw

onestop.mid Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fxUxU3Wu1w

I like how music sounds with the Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth. That's what I grew up with and that's what I used with Simon the Sorcerer when I was a kid. But yes, it does sound better, and it is much better with the SC-55. So that's a conversion in that video I linked then? I wonder how that was done? Again, I can achieve the same result with ScummVM, and that was without any additional options checked, or soundfonts added etc. I'm guessing that was what was used. I can't access the original site they're from; the link is dead it seems.

I can't speak as to how that particular one was converted, but it is not an exact science, manual tweaking is necessary for optimal results and compromise will often need to be made. For example, since General MIDI has a fixed palette of 128 instruments, whereas the MT-32 allows for custom defined instruments.

AFAICR, to be able to use the GS Wavetable Softsynth, you need to have WDM drivers installed for your sound card. The sound card does not need to be a PCI one.

There are significant caveats to using WDM audio drivers. Among other things, if I am not mistaken, the FM synth (OPL3) will not be accessible to DOS applications.

EDIT: See https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-har … udio-components for more info on WDM drivers.

WDM drivers are actually what I was just looking into due to CD images not playing audio in some games. Some old threads were suggesting it and digital audio over analog. I'm not sure if the sound card I'm using has a WDM driver installed or if they're VxD. It's an ISA Yamaha YMF71x. Is there somewhere I can find out on the PC what type I have installed? I can't imagine I'll be making use of FM Synth, so I don't mind losing it. Though can it be re-enabled if I were to uninstall WDM drivers and install VxD ones again?

Driver for YMF71x built into Win98SE and ME is WDM, and it won't give you any useful DOS compatibility (SB support is basically broken, but you do get FM music). Yamaha's drivers are VXD and give full SBpro compatibility along with FM and much better softsynth (depending on driver version, there are several flavors). If you want CD audio you'll need a cable from CD drive and have to make sure that CD input isn't muted on the card.

Tiido wrote on 2024-12-19, 01:10:

Driver for YMF71x built into Win98SE and ME is WDM, and it won't give you any useful DOS compatibility (SB support is basically broken, but you do get FM music). Yamaha's drivers are VXD and give full SBpro compatibility along with FM and much better softsynth (depending on driver version, there are several flavors). If you want CD audio you'll need a cable from CD drive and have to make sure that CD input isn't muted on the card.

Okay. From what I've sampled of Soft Synth is that it's too soft. And by that I mean it's ridiculously quiet. Even with volume controls turned all the way up. At least, I think it's Soft Synth. Or Soft FM.

And yeah, my cable is connected from the CD drive to the sound card. Again, the volume controls are at max in Windows. They're not a problem in DOS last I checked, either.

You run the other sources lower then. For reference, 0db points of each input is at the first notch from *bottom*, going higher starts to add gain, which also increases noise. Exceptions are the Master volume, Wave (all the sampled sounds from WSS DAC) and softsynth+3D stereo setting, they work in a different way.

Optimum mixer settings for YMF71x cards look so, when using Yamaha's VXD driver :

Other settings you change from the card specific app in control panel :

Here you choose if DOS games use external MIDI device or the XGlite softsynth, aswell as quality settings for the softsynth and tone controls if present (YMF711/718 lacks them for example).

As far as CD audio goes, if you have several drives (that includes virtual ones), there are likely going to be problems if games etc. don't let you choose a specific drive.

Tiido is right. You have to adjust the volumes. Some of them might also be hidden in the volume mixer and need to be enabled first.

Tiido wrote on 2024-12-19, 02:13:

You run the other sources lower then. For reference, 0db points of each input is at the first notch from *bottom*, going higher […]
Show full quote

You run the other sources lower then. For reference, 0db points of each input is at the first notch from *bottom*, going higher starts to add gain, which also increases noise. Exceptions are the Master volume, Wave (all the sampled sounds from WSS DAC) and softsynth+3D stereo setting, they work in a different way.

Optimum mixer settings for YMF71x cards look so, when using Yamaha's VXD driver :

The attachment Clipboard01.png is no longer available

Other settings you change from the card specific app in control panel :

The attachment Clipboard02.png is no longer available

Here you choose if DOS games use external MIDI device or the XGlite softsynth, aswell as quality settings for the softsynth and tone controls if present (YMF711/718 lacks them for example).

As far as CD audio goes, if you have several drives (that includes virtual ones), there are likely going to be problems if games etc. don't let you choose a specific drive.

Oh cool. Thanks for the heads-up. I’ll have to give that a try. 😀 I have that app and my settings are pretty much the same as in your image.
You wouldn’t happen to know which driver is VXD and which is WDM by any chance? I tried checking the readme and config files for some that I’d downloaded, but couldn’t see any indication which one is what. I presume I have VXD as I have that app in my Control Panel, FM Synth is still an option, and the option for digital audio is greyed out.

I also have two CD drives - one physical and one emulated. Things were fine previously having the emulated drive set to E, but since updating the BIOS, things have gone weird. Not to mention complicated.

Kahenraz wrote on 2024-12-19, 02:20:

Tiido is right. You have to adjust the volumes. Some of them might also be hidden in the volume mixer and need to be enabled first.

Yeah, I enabled most of them. Except the one for Mic and 3D audio or some such.

Just checked the DirectX Diagnostic Tool - it’s definitely .VXD. So I just need to find out if there are any WDM drivers for this sound card.

Also, I tried those volume settings for Soft Synth - works perfectly. 😀

For YMF71x the only WDM driver is what comes with Windows itself and you lose it when you install the Yamaha's drivers. There's probably a way to extract it from the CD and make use of it but overall it is a downgrade, especially if you want to use the card for anything DOS.