Okay, I'm a bit confused now. Geforce 2, Geforce 2 MX, MX200... The Geforce 2 MX is an improvement over the Riva TNT, but was told it wouldn't be a significant improvement. ^^;

EDIT: Maybe I'll go for a Geforce 4. Maybe.

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-12-26, 13:09:

Ahhh. I missed that detail. 😅 […]
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Shponglefan wrote on 2024-12-26, 13:01:

It isn't. They linked to the GeForce 2 MX which is a cut-down budget version of the GeForce 2. […]
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DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-12-26, 12:33:

I wouldn’t have thought the GeForce 2 would be weaker than a 256 what with being its successor. 😮

It isn't. They linked to the GeForce 2 MX which is a cut-down budget version of the GeForce 2.

The 'proper' GeForce 2 cards include the GeForce 2 GTS, GeForce 2 Pro, GeForce 2 Ti and GeForce 2 Ultra.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_2_series#Models

Ahhh. I missed that detail. 😅

So I should go for something like the GeForce 2 Ultra or 5200.

Edit: Mind you, that’s a bit pricier

if you can afford a GF2 Ultra buy an FX5900 😀 , tho that would require a new psu for additional power, and not sure how it will fare on a 450mhz cpu.
the GF2 Ultras are still DX7, so you wont have the DX8 you wanted, fx5200's are cheap as shit, theres a bunch on ebay for like 8-£15, go for 128MB vram, doesnt matter if its 128bit or 64bit it will be will be an improvement in performace over your current GPU, guarantee it will be the best 8-£15 you've ever spent. 🤣

DudeFace wrote on 2024-12-26, 15:02:

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-12-26, 13:09:

Ahhh. I missed that detail. 😅 […]
Show full quote

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-12-26, 13:01:

It isn't. They linked to the GeForce 2 MX which is a cut-down budget version of the GeForce 2.

The 'proper' GeForce 2 cards include the GeForce 2 GTS, GeForce 2 Pro, GeForce 2 Ti and GeForce 2 Ultra.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_2_series#Models

Ahhh. I missed that detail. 😅

So I should go for something like the GeForce 2 Ultra or 5200.

Edit: Mind you, that’s a bit pricier

if you can afford a GF2 Ultra buy an FX5900 😀 , tho that would require a new psu for additional power, and not sure how it will fare on a 450mhz cpu.
the GF2 Ultras are still DX7, so you wont have the DX8 you wanted, fx5200's are cheap as shit, theres a bunch on ebay for like 8-£15, go for 128MB vram, doesnt matter if its 128bit or 64bit it will be will be an improvement in performace over your current GPU, guarantee it will be the best 8-£15 you've ever spent. 🤣

Okay, thanks for the suggestion. I think you're probably right. I think the Geforce 2 Ultra costs more than I'd like to spend anyway. I certainly don't want anything that would be overkill for the CPU I have, either.

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-12-26, 14:23:

Okay, I'm a bit confused now. Geforce 2, Geforce 2 MX, MX200... The Geforce 2 MX is an improvement over the Riva TNT, but was told it wouldn't be a significant improvement. ^^;

In terms of performance, there is a big difference. But not in terms of supported features, as that would be DX6 vs. DX7.

On the other hand, with a GeForce 3/4 you get DX8 features like pixel shaders, which can make a big visual impact in games that utilize them. An early example of such a game would be Morrowind.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-12-26, 15:56:

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-12-26, 14:23:

Okay, I'm a bit confused now. Geforce 2, Geforce 2 MX, MX200... The Geforce 2 MX is an improvement over the Riva TNT, but was told it wouldn't be a significant improvement. ^^;

In terms of performance, there is a big difference. But not in terms of supported features, as that would be DX6 vs. DX7.

On the other hand, with a GeForce 3/4 you get DX8 features like pixel shaders, which can make a big visual impact in games that utilize them. An early example of such a game would be Morrowind.

I'm still fairly torn. Torn between getting a 5200 or a Geforce 3/4. I have seen a decent priced Geforce 4 MX 440 128MB.

EDIT: Also, I feel stopping at DirectX 8 would be better. DirectX 9 supported games are not the sort I'd be playing on my 98 machine, but my main PC.

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-12-26, 16:03:

I'm still fairly torn. Torn between getting a 5200 or a Geforce 3/4. I have seen a decent priced Geforce 4 MX 440 128MB.

The GeForce 4 MX440 has the same DX7 feature set as a GeForce 2. Meaning, it lacks DX8 features like pixel shaders that a GeForce 4 Ti card has. Yet both cards officially belong to the GeForce 4 line, which makes things super confusing. Nvidia caught a lot of flak for that borderline deceitful marketing back in the day.

Realistically, you won't be able to play DX8 games at decent performance on a 450 MHz CPU. For that kind of machine, I wouldn't bother going past a GeForce 2 MX400. But if you really want those DX8 features for some reason, either get a GeForce3/4 Ti or a GeForce FX card.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-12-26, 16:14:

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-12-26, 16:03:

I'm still fairly torn. Torn between getting a 5200 or a Geforce 3/4. I have seen a decent priced Geforce 4 MX 440 128MB.

The GeForce 4 MX440 has the same DX7 feature set as a GeForce 2. Meaning, it lacks DX8 features like pixel shaders that a GeForce 4 Ti card has. Yet both cards officially belong to the GeForce 4 line, which makes things super confusing. Nvidia caught a lot of flak for that borderline deceitful marketing back in the day.

Realistically, you won't be able to play DX8 games at decent performance on a 450 MHz CPU. For that kind of machine, I wouldn't bother going past a GeForce 2 MX400. But if you really want those DX8 features for some reason, either get a GeForce3/4 Ti or a GeForce FX card.

Hmm. I see. Okay. I mean, I wouldn't expect to play DirectX 8 games, or play them smoothly, it would be more to have an edge for DirectX 7 games and below. That would benefit from DX8's features, if at all. If there wouldn't be much of a benefit, then I guess I'd stick to a Geforce 2. In which case, the MX400 is definitely a good choice...? ^^;

I'd probably argue for the image output quality with that CPU bottleneck in mind. GeforceFX's sharper than GF2/3. You won't get the more lightweight control panel with the flower lady though

Should I aim for a Geforce 2 MX 400 that has 128-bit memory? Or would 64 bit be fine? I saw an old post from someone saying something about 'the best ones have 4.5 or 5ns memory' or something. I'm not sure where that info is found, but I tried looking at the images of the board I'm watching, along with GPU-Z info, but couldn't find anything about that.

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-12-27, 01:46:

Should I aim for a Geforce 2 MX 400 that has 128-bit memory? Or would 64 bit be fine? I saw an old post from someone saying something about 'the best ones have 4.5 or 5ns memory' or something. I'm not sure where that info is found, but I tried looking at the images of the board I'm watching, along with GPU-Z info, but couldn't find anything about that.

I would stay away from cards with 64-bit memory; they're slow on the desktop.

gf4mx ~= gf2mx

myne wrote on 2024-12-31, 10:18:

gf4mx ~= gf2mx

Wrong , geforce mx 440 equal or faster than geforce 2 ti.

There's a 32MB Creative Labs CT5823 TnT2 AGP Graphics Video Card GPU on ebay currently for £30. I believe it is a full TNT2 and not the slow M64 variant, but perhaps someone can correct me on that. If so, it would be 30-50% faster than a TNT I think on your system.

From what I have read I think with the current CPU it's not worth going beyond the geforce 2, as driver overheads mean than a newer card can perform worse than an older one:

https://youtu.be/HRhm4aGNI3o?si=0ckGM_-WoVRgKEbe

The problem is that proper early Geforce cards (rather than cut down versions) are expensive now.

Is Voodoo 3 2000 a worthy option? Outperforms the TNT but adds glide support, which will help with some games. You would pay the 3DFX premium though, and they seem to go for £100-£125

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2024-12-31, 11:27:

There's a 32MB Creative Labs CT5823 TnT2 AGP Graphics Video Card GPU on ebay currently for £30.

Local purchases are also an option. I got my TNT2 for the equivalent of US$13.

GemCookie wrote on 2024-12-31, 11:36:

Local purchases are also an option. I got my TNT2 for the equivalent of US$13.

Or even given away if you are lucky. Not so long ago someone local was giving away a brand new in box Geforce FX 5200. I initially offered to take it, but changed my mind, as I already have an FX5500. So realistically I wouldn't have used a 5200. So I let someone else have it.

I ended up ordering a GeForce 4 MX440. It was the same price as a GeForce 2 someone was selling, I think. Paid about £15 for it.

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-12-31, 12:42:

I ended up ordering a GeForce 4 MX440. It was the same price as a GeForce 2 someone was selling, I think. Paid about £15 for it.

Let us know how this affects your framerates. The GPU is 4yrs newer than your current TNT, and about 3yrs newer than your CPU. At the time of 440MX release, people were using Athlon XP CPU. Pentium 4s of 2Ghz+ were available. I expect the drivers may be too much for your PIII 450Mhz and not allow the card to reach it's potential.

I should add, that at that price it's certainly worth trying. I am interested to see your results. I could try it myself, but my PIII system isn't currently on the bench.

Sure thing. What's the best benchmarking tool to use, 3DMark? I aim to install the likes of Half-Life and Quake 2 today and see how they run currently, so I can compare the results once I get the card. I have a sneaking suspicion though that I may need to upgrade the PSU.

I wouldn't be surprised if I have made a mistake with my choice and it winds up running below it's potential. But £15 isn't anything worth losing sleep over. Worst case, I can keep hold of it for a potential upgrade in the future, when I find a slightly faster CPU for it. I would just have to get a Geforce 2 instead.

3D mark is a good start. Several games have built in benchmarks. I would just install FRAPS and play the games you want to play, and see what improvement there is. I expect your framerate will improve, just not sure if it will be by as much as you hope.