RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2025-01-04, 16:46:

Hopefully once you upgrade the CPU, the performance will be what you want.

People have rose colored glasses when they think back on the hardware they used to use or a friend or family member had and they played on it occasionally. 3D games ran at 15-20fps, and the Voodoo magic might be a smooth 30fps experience. We're spoiled nowadays with people seeing 60fps as a minimum and wanting 100+fps.

But IMO running through the various upgrade paths to try to chase the envisioned performance rarely does more than put a hole in one's wallet especially when looking at the highest performing models that everyone chases. You just end up going through a deep dive of the chaos of a rapidly changing market.

If you want an experience of a certain build, you'll get that warts and all. Generally buying entry to mid range level hardware from a generation after where you are looking will net you the performance you were chasing, but on hardware that people aren't overspending on. The only thing to check is compatibility with games and feature sets you want to play.

SScorpio wrote on 2025-01-04, 17:14:

People have rose colored glasses when they think back on the hardware they used to use or a friend or family member had and they played on it occasionally. 3D games ran at 15-20fps, and the Voodoo magic might be a smooth 30fps experience. We're spoiled nowadays with people seeing 60fps as a minimum and wanting 100+fps.

But IMO running through the various upgrade paths to try to chase the envisioned performance rarely does more than put a hole in one's wallet especially when looking at the highest performing models that everyone chases. You just end up going through a deep dive of the chaos of a rapidly changing market.

If you want an experience of a certain build, you'll get that warts and all. Generally buying entry to mid range level hardware from a generation after where you are looking will net you the performance you were chasing, but on hardware that people aren't overspending on. The only thing to check is compatibility with games and feature sets you want to play.

Yes, true. If smoothness is what you want then you have to build something that's not period correct. Pentium 4 probably being the cheapest option for a Win9X s build, is actually going to give one of the best experiences IMHO. With such an overpowered CPU, then using newer drivers with a newer GPU is less of an issue.

The topic has been touched on briefly in this thread, but I need some help/guidance on what the maximum CPU speed is my motherboard (MSI MS-6156 BX11) can support. Changing the voltages isn't something I have much experience with and I'm not sure how much, if at all, I'd be able to anyway. I just need to find out what the default maximum is just to give me an idea. The last thing I want to do is get myself a Coppermine Pentium III 800MHz or something only to find it's too much and not supported. I tried checking the info about the motherboard, but nothing has been listed from what I can see. The manual mentions Pentium II and Celerons from 233-450MHz or faster, but that's it.

Thanks

DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-01-15, 22:48:

I need some help/guidance on what the maximum CPU speed is my motherboard (MSI MS-6156 BX11) can support. Changing the voltages isn't something I have much experience with and I'm not sure how much, if at all, I'd be able to anyway.
Thanks

The motherboard manual states that it autodetects the required voltage. It also says that it can support 8x multiplier and 100Mhz bus.

So it sounds like 800Mhz may be the max. But I don't know for sure to be honest. Maybe someone else will know more.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2025-01-15, 23:02:

The motherboard manual states that it autodetects the required voltage. It also says that it can support 8x multiplier and 100Mh […]
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DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-01-15, 22:48:

I need some help/guidance on what the maximum CPU speed is my motherboard (MSI MS-6156 BX11) can support. Changing the voltages isn't something I have much experience with and I'm not sure how much, if at all, I'd be able to anyway.
Thanks

The motherboard manual states that it autodetects the required voltage. It also says that it can support 8x multiplier and 100Mhz bus.

The attachment Screenshot_20250115_225823_Samsung Notes.jpg is no longer available

So it sounds like 800Mhz may be the max. But I don't know for sure to be honest. Maybe someone else will know more.

Ahhh, I see. I did notice that table, but didn't really process it. That would make sense to be honest. I have seen a couple of CPUs that are 866MHz and 933MHz, so I probably shouldn't take the risk getting either of those.

Hmm. Just seen one for sale that's 933MHz. I asked the seller what mobo they'd taken it from and they'd had it in an ASUS P3B-F and an Abit BE6-II, which had a 440BX. However their multiplier was 133MHz and it was fine. Mine only looks to have a 100MHz multiplier. So I'm guessing it would work, but the multiplier would need adjusting...?

DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-01-16, 00:08:

Hmm. Just seen one for sale that's 933MHz. I asked the seller what mobo they'd taken it from and they'd had it in an ASUS P3B-F and an Abit BE6-II, which had a 440BX. However their multiplier was 133MHz and it was fine. Mine only looks to have a 100MHz multiplier. So I'm guessing it would work, but the multiplier would need adjusting...?

So... quick history lesson. In early 2000, Intel had very excellent 133FSB Coppermines, but there were no good chipset options
- i820 needed RDRAM after the whole MTH debacle, and RDRAM was insanely expensive right as the price of SDRAM was plunging
- 440BX didn't officially support 133FSB or a bunch of other new things
- i810E had 133FSB but no AGP, only lousy on-chipset graphics
- Via had the Apollo Pro 133 (IIRC) which was strangely popular (including in non-Dell large OEM systems) despite, well, being Via...

So a number of Taiwanese motherboard manufacturers started experimenting with 440BX overclocked to 133FSB and I think overall, the results were... better than expected... and so they launched a last round of 440BX boards, including maybe even some socket 370 boards, that were intended to be run overclocked to 133FSB.

DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-01-15, 23:43:

Ahhh, I see. I did notice that table, but didn't really process it. That would make sense to be honest. I have seen a couple of CPUs that are 866MHz and 933MHz, so I probably shouldn't take the risk getting either of those.

That CPU may work, but I believe the multiplier is locked at 7x. Which means youd get 700mhz out of it, assuming the motherboard used 100mhz bus for it (and I honestly dont know what it would do with a CPU that needs 133Mhz bus). Which is a good point actually. That multiplier table can probably be ignored for any CPUs beyond the early PII ones that had unlocked multipliers. All PIII are multiplier locked as far as I know.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2025-01-16, 05:57:

DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-01-15, 23:43:

Ahhh, I see. I did notice that table, but didn't really process it. That would make sense to be honest. I have seen a couple of CPUs that are 866MHz and 933MHz, so I probably shouldn't take the risk getting either of those.

That CPU may work, but I believe the multiplier is locked at 7x. Which means youd get 700mhz out of it, assuming the motherboard used 100mhz bus for it (and I honestly dont know what it would do with a CPU that needs 133Mhz bus). Which is a good point actually. That multiplier table can probably be ignored for any CPUs beyond the early PII ones that had unlocked multipliers. All PIII are multiplier locked as far as I know.

Why locked at 7? Is there any other way of finding out? Some software/tool that will tell you?

DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-01-16, 06:13:

Why locked at 7? Is there any other way of finding out? Some software/tool that will tell you?

933 doesn't evenly divide by 100 so must be 133mhz bus. 933 divided by 133 is 7. So that must be the multiplier.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2025-01-16, 06:41:

DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-01-16, 06:13:

Why locked at 7? Is there any other way of finding out? Some software/tool that will tell you?

933 doesn't evenly divide by 100 so must be 133mhz bus. 933 divided by 133 is 7. So that must be the multiplier.

Ahhh, I see. And yeah, the seller recently confirmed they had their multiplier set to 7.

I just need to check the BIOS on mine to see if there’s an option to change the multiplier. My only concern now is the voltage. And whether or not it can be changed, what my current CPU is using, and what the new one would need.

DustyShinigami wrote on 2025-01-16, 13:25:

Ahhh, I see. And yeah, the seller recently confirmed they had their multiplier set to 7.

I just need to check the BIOS on mine to see if there’s an option to change the multiplier. My only concern now is the voltage. And whether or not it can be changed, what my current CPU is using, and what the new one would need.

The BIOS having a multiplier setting is meaningless. Only some early Katmai P3's were unlocked.

You can change the front side bus, but that CPU would be stuck at 7x.

I was about to post and say anyway - there are no options to adjust, sadly. I take it the BUS speed would adjust accordingly then...? From 133 to 100MHz...?

I really need to find out about the voltage though. I don't currently have a tool for checking, but what I did see was that my CPU (I think) needs around 1.9-2V...? I'm not 100% on the exact model I have, only that it's a Katmai Pentium III 450MHz. The model I've been looking at upgrading to is an SL448, which only needs 1.7V.

Got it. Just taken it out and took a look at it. It's an SL35D. 450/512/100/2V

https://www.cpu-world.com/sspec/SL/SL35D.html

And the one I'm looking at:

https://www.cpu-world.com/sspec/SL/SL448.html

I went and ordered the chip anyway. The seller said if it doesn't work I can always send it back and get a refund. However, I'm still trying to find out if it's possible the Bus Speed will be 133MHz with my motherboard. As well as some other factors.

The guy told me he was able to set the Bus Speed via his BIOS. Sadly, I don't have the option to do that with mine. 🙁 There are no options to adjust the voltages either. According to HWinfo I just installed on my 98 PC, the CPU I have can supposedly go up to 550MHz. How would I manage that if I wanted to try? Just with the Dip Switches on the motherboard? The manual only suggests it goes up to 450MHz.
The guy sent the manual PDF for his motherboard and that, too, only lists his Bus Speed as 100/66, and yet he was still able to take it up to 133. Or will the motherboard automatically set it to 133? I also read the RAM speed plays a part too, which is why I checked HWinfo. Unsurprisingly, the speed of that is 100MHz as well. At least I know the make of that now so I'll be able to upgrade it. Also, I noticed the L2 cache is lower for this new chip than what I have. My current one is 512KB, whereas as this Coppermine is 256KB. I suppose it won't make much of a difference...? I usually have to disable that for DOS games anyway.

The link I posted for the SL448 has three bullet points. The second one just says 'X'. Any ideas what that's supposed to mean? Thanks.

OEM built OCs often will lock out the user from overclocking options. Their typical market isn't people that play with that stuff. An inexperienced user may cause more support calls or cause damage if they don't know what they are doing.

Your motherboard manual didn't state that it supports 133Mhz, so my expectation is that this chip will run at 100Mhz x 7 = 700Mhz. Will be interesting to see. That's still a nice bump from what you have now.

To right corner. There's a big chip with 32/40 pins.
That's the bios.
What's the smaller chip next to it?

Near the metal oval thing.

It's probably ICS something. What's the number?
That's the clock generator.

An app called softfsb can talk to it and potentially change the fsb. But you need to knew which it is.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2025-01-17, 14:50:

OEM built OCs often will lock out the user from overclocking options. Their typical market isn't people that play with that stuff. An inexperienced user may cause more support calls or cause damage if they don't know what they are doing.

Your motherboard manual didn't state that it supports 133Mhz, so my expectation is that this chip will run at 100Mhz x 7 = 700Mhz. Will be interesting to see. That's still a nice bump from what you have now.

True, it should be. And it was cheaper than some of the other 700MHz Coppermine CPUs I've seen on eBay. And yes, I did forget about the fact it was most likely bought from a store and is OEM configured. As mentioned though, the seller's manual also doesn't state it supports 133MHz, but he was able to configure it. Guess I'll just have to wait and see.

myne wrote on 2025-01-17, 15:09:

To right corner. There's a big chip with 32/40 pins. That's the bios. What's the smaller chip next to it? […]
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To right corner. There's a big chip with 32/40 pins.
That's the bios.
What's the smaller chip next to it?

Near the metal oval thing.

It's probably ICS something. What's the number?
That's the clock generator.

An app called softfsb can talk to it and potentially change the fsb. But you need to knew which it is.

What/where are you referring to? In my manual?

myne wrote on 2025-01-17, 15:09:

To right corner. There's a big chip with 32/40 pins. That's the bios. What's the smaller chip next to it? […]
Show full quote

To right corner. There's a big chip with 32/40 pins.
That's the bios.
What's the smaller chip next to it?

Near the metal oval thing.

It's probably ICS something. What's the number?
That's the clock generator.

An app called softfsb can talk to it and potentially change the fsb. But you need to knew which it is.

That app sounds ideal, though I'm not sure if a more up to date version exists...? The one I downloaded doesn't even list my motherboard.