SansPlomb95 wrote on 2025-03-17, 20:50:

shevalier wrote on 2025-03-13, 14:49:

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-03-13, 11:57:

You can actually hear them flying above your head when everything is configured properly.

5.1 audio stream contains enough spatial information for the CMSS3 to work properly.
In games that give coordinates of sound sources via DirectSound or OpenAL - everything is generally fine with this.

But CMSS3D does not make use of a multichannel source, it starts straight from a basic stereo feed

And I didn't even talk about stereo
Although stereo processing for headphones is needed, see crossfeed. But X-Fi makes it frankly lousy.

Firstly, the 5+1 mixture itself already contains some spatial information (these are already recorded frequency response predistortions and delays)
Secondly, CMSS3D uses the coordinates of acoustic speakers, the location of which is strictly standardized.
This is enough for a clear effect.

SansPlomb95 wrote on 2025-03-17, 21:10:

The last bit is a relevant clue, indeed, so I could we wrong depending on the title

That's why I always recommend Audigi 2 Value SB0400.
And it sounds good, and there is no heresy with switching modes and a bunch of knobs.
And in terms of technology, it’s almost the same as X-Fi.
Sometimes I'm glad that x-fi is dead.
To set it up clearly, to use it you need to be a phd.
And then go into the game’s ini file and look for where to replace “generic device” with “SB1270 Creative X-Fi” - hello Mass Effect 1

shevalier wrote on 2025-03-18, 06:34:

That's why I always recommend Audigi 2 Value SB0400.
And it sounds good, and there is no heresy with switching modes and a bunch of knobs.
And in terms of technology, it’s almost the same as X-Fi.

I agree that setting up the X-Fi properly can be overly complicated and sometimes even confusing. But speaking strictly about CMSS, I think the Audigy cards use an older version, which doesn't have MacroFX and the Elevation Filter. For example, here's a screenshot from my Audigy 2 ZS (SB0350) using Daniel_K's latest drivers under WinXP:

I can only select between CMSS, CMSS2 and Off. There aren't any other options.

P.S.

Setting up the X-Fi when using 5.1 speakers is a lot more straightforward. You select 5.1 in the Creative Speaker Settings, check "Synchronize with Control Panel" and also select 5.1 in your game, if available. Of course, CMSS should be turned off when using surround speakers for gaming.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-03-18, 07:24:

I can only select between CMSS, CMSS2 and Off. There aren't any other options.

MacroFX is probably a different (more accurate) 3D head model, reflections from which are taken into account differently.
Elevation filter - theoretically it is... the same 3D head model, which has ????
I have no idea, or you have HRTF and a 3D head model, on which the sound is calculated.
Or is this a marketing bullshit.
Or you need application-level support, like X-RAM.
Personally, I do not hear any differences from activating these options. 🙁

The only significant difference in CMSS between 3D and version 2 is in Unreal 2004 X-Fi.
But it is so significant (like the launcher firing) that I think it can only be explained by different audio samples.
Where does the smacking sound come from when loading a rocket launcher with X-Fi?

shevalier wrote on 2025-03-18, 08:20:

MacroFX is probably a different (more accurate) 3D head model, reflections from which are taken into account differently.
Elevation filter - theoretically it is... the same 3D head model, which has ????

There's some info on MacroFX on Creative's website (archived). As for the Elevation Filter, I've only seen it mentioned in the X-Fi help file:

I haven't tested this extensively, but I think it's slightly easier to discern when enemies are above or below you in FPS games, thanks to the Elevation Filter.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-03-18, 07:24:

I agree that setting up the X-Fi properly can be overly complicated and sometimes even confusing. But speaking strictly about CM […]
Show full quote

shevalier wrote on 2025-03-18, 06:34:

That's why I always recommend Audigi 2 Value SB0400.
And it sounds good, and there is no heresy with switching modes and a bunch of knobs.
And in terms of technology, it’s almost the same as X-Fi.

I agree that setting up the X-Fi properly can be overly complicated and sometimes even confusing. But speaking strictly about CMSS, I think the Audigy cards use an older version, which doesn't have MacroFX and the Elevation Filter. For example, here's a screenshot from my Audigy 2 ZS (SB0350) using Daniel_K's latest drivers under WinXP:

The attachment CMSS_Audigy2ZS.jpg is no longer available

I can only select between CMSS, CMSS2 and Off. There aren't any other options.

P.S.

Setting up the X-Fi when using 5.1 speakers is a lot more straightforward. You select 5.1 in the Creative Speaker Settings, check "Synchronize with Control Panel" and also select 5.1 in your game, if available. Of course, CMSS should be turned off when using surround speakers for gaming.

In case of Audigy 2, Zs etc. another control utility (namely Creative EAX Console) gives a little bit more info about what CMSS is for:
5.1 setup

Headphone

According to description and my own experiemce in case of Audigy CMSS is only relevant for stereo sources. And at least on Win XP with Creative drivers you do not have to enable/disable it for 3D positional audio and gaming since it is not relevant.
On Audigy CMSS is mainly a stereo signal to multiple speaker upscaling technology and its effect can be clearly heard on multi-speaker setups.
On headphones I have never understood and heard what it is doing exactly and why on stereo sources.
But it has no effect on stereo+ sources (similarly to 4/5.1 speaker setups).

Falcosoft wrote on 2025-03-18, 08:42:

On headphones I have never understood and heard what it is doing exactly and why on stereo sources.

CMSS on acoustics is a slightly complicated upmix (with channel delays and cutting out some frequencies).
This was done on tubes schematic when quadraphonic systems started to appear.
Wave calculations without "acoustics-room" calibration simply do not work - is to many variables.
At all.
This is simply so that the rear speakers do not remain silent.

With a real 5.1 setup (not CMSS upmix 2.0 to 5.1), nothing else is needed, the positioning is done by design itself. The directions are clearly defined by the placement of the speakers, and the macro-FX and elevation are obtained in the most natural "analog" way - on the listener's head.
The method is the best, but real estate has always been expensive.

CMSS for headphones - is fundamentally different. Although not from the "Dark Age of Technology"
Just its own implementation of HRTF

It also works on Audigy, but the head model is simpler there.
If you don't hear positioning in headphones with the CMSS turned on, then
- your shape of head doesn't match this implementation of HRTF
- your headphones are of the wrong system.
P.S. For some (strange) reason, HDR 10+ bit requires a corresponding display, but no one complains about it.
As for headphones, the ones bought with change from buying beer will be quite enough.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-03-18, 08:40:

I haven't tested this extensively, but I think it's slightly easier to discern when enemies are above or below you in FPS games, thanks to the Elevation Filter.

I don't know, with higher/lower it all depends on the headphones.
I once had headphones that positioned footsteps exclusively above my head from behind.
Play any map in Counter-Strike 1.6 - everyone stomps on your head. 🙁
It was weird and unpleasant.

I just got Mirror's Edge from the GOG spring sale, and I wanted to check if it uses EAX. From what I can tell, there are no mentions of EAX in the game's documentation, but it does have support for hardware OpenAL. That said, the game's executable seems to reference EAX 4.0 in several places:

Not sure if this is actually used, or if it's just a leftover from Unreal Engine 3, which this game is based on. Anyhow, I edited TdEngine.ini to increase the number of available hardware voices to 128, and to replace "Generic Hardware" with the proper OpenAL name of my X-Fi card:

1[ALAudio.ALAudioDevice]
2MaxChannels=128
3UseEffectsProcessing=True
4TimeBetweenHWUpdates=15
5MinOggVorbisDurationGame=20
6MinOggVorbisDurationEditor=4
7DeviceName=SB X-Fi Audio [0001]
8MinOggVorbisDuration=10

Originally, the number of hardware voices in that INI file was just 32.

Here's a look at its successor, SXFI Battle Mode. Not bad.

https://youtu.be/5uPMynoX1UY?si=KjbaFdYHx2QMrPW9

Interesting as EAX RAM is also mentioned

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-03-20, 10:45:

I just got Mirror's Edge from the GOG spring sale, and I wanted to check if it uses EAX. From what I can tell, there are no mentions of EAX in the game's documentation, but it does have support for hardware OpenAL. That said, the game's executable seems to reference EAX 4.0 in several places

Having just finished Mirror's Edge, I can say that I have heard both occlusion and reverb effects in certain areas. Mostly while traversing air vents and similar enclosed spaces.

Again, I have no official confirmation that this game uses EAX, so I won't add it to the list, but it sure feels like it to my ears. At the very least, if you have an Audigy or X-Fi card, be sure to select the "Hardware" option in the game's Audio settings. You will be pleased with the results.

https://imgur.com/a/r4auXXT
Here's my crazy build with a 3050 6GB as a dedicated PhysX card and a X-Fi Titanium HD.
Yeah, I might have a problem letting go of the past. Still the best way to play old games.

One more note on Mirror's Edge. As a native OpenAL game, it works quite well with CMSS-3D Headphone. This is further emphasized by its level design, which often includes enemies shooting at you from above or below. And you'll definitively hear the helicopters flying over your head.

In terms of setup, I selected Headphones in the Creative Console Launcher, turned on CMSS-3D Headphone, and left MacroFX and Elevation Filter on Auto. The resulting output was great.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-03-23, 20:31:

Having just finished Mirror's Edge, I can say that I have heard both occlusion and reverb effects in certain areas. Mostly while traversing air vents and similar enclosed spaces.

Again, I have no official confirmation that this game uses EAX, so I won't add it to the list, but it sure feels like it to my ears. At the very least, if you have an Audigy or X-Fi card, be sure to select the "Hardware" option in the game's Audio settings. You will be pleased with the results.

Occlusion came with EAX 5.0 not 4.0

DeadOfKnight wrote on 2025-03-25, 01:25:

https://imgur.com/a/r4auXXT
Here's my crazy build with a 3050 6GB as a dedicated PhysX card and a X-Fi Titanium HD.
Yeah, I might have a problem letting go of the past. Still the best way to play old games.

The use of RTX cards means you are not on Windows XP and therefore relying on inaccurate DirectSound3D emulators instead such as Creative Alchemy; this is not the best way to play old EAX titles.

SansPlomb95 wrote on 2025-03-26, 03:57:

The use of RTX cards means you are not on Windows XP and therefore relying on inaccurate DirectSound3D emulators instead such as Creative Alchemy; this is not the best way to play old EAX titles.

This is not an emulator, this is a DirectSound to OpenAL translator from the Creative company itself.

PS. A computer like this for old games is of course a sort of perversion, but it is impressive and cool. 😀

SansPlomb95 wrote on 2025-03-26, 03:45:

Occlusion came with EAX 5.0 not 4.0

No, Occlusion was first introduced in EAX 2.0. Though later EAX versions have a more advanced iteration.

You were probably thinking of Environment Occlusion, which is indeed an EAX 5.0 feature.

shevalier wrote on 2025-03-26, 05:38:

SansPlomb95 wrote on 2025-03-26, 03:57:

The use of RTX cards means you are not on Windows XP and therefore relying on inaccurate DirectSound3D emulators instead such as Creative Alchemy; this is not the best way to play old EAX titles.

This is not an emulator, this is a DirectSound to OpenAL translator from the Creative company itself.

Creative themselves explained how DirectSound is being emulated on Vista onwards.
https://web.archive.org/web/20120307195257/ht … .aspx?sid=25937

SansPlomb95 wrote on 2025-03-26, 03:57:

DeadOfKnight wrote on 2025-03-25, 01:25:

https://imgur.com/a/r4auXXT
Here's my crazy build with a 3050 6GB as a dedicated PhysX card and a X-Fi Titanium HD.
Yeah, I might have a problem letting go of the past. Still the best way to play old games.

The use of RTX cards means you are not on Windows XP and therefore relying on inaccurate DirectSound3D emulators instead such as Creative Alchemy; this is not the best way to play old EAX titles.

While it's true that the X-Fi Titanium HD is not officially supported on Windows 11, it still works (mostly, a couple features are broken). It is the hardware that enables EAX to run without emulation.

Also, I wouldn't put hardware on such a high pedestal. Software emulation can be quite good and accurate. My subjective impression is that native EAX support sounds better than Creative's official software support for EAX, but I haven't even begun to dip my toes into 3rd party solutions for enabling it without a Creative sound card. Maybe in the future, when this card dies or Windows 13 breaks it completely, I'll look into other solutions. They may be quite good by then if they aren't already, and if not there will be more incentive to make it better if hardware is no longer a realistic option. I also wouldn't rule out 3rd party drivers to keep these old cards on life support for as long as possible. Long live backwards compatibility!

If we could connect the current software emulation with the audio hardware on currently used GPUs, we could easily best Creative's last-gen EAX hardware and get exceptional audio quality. Unfortunately, nobody seems to be looking into that.

The X-Fi Titanium HD is also not even officially supported on Windows XP but I have been able to have it working thanks to a third party driver so you can do the same once you'll start eventually building a true Windows XP machine.
If you run hardware accelerated EAX games through anything else than Windows XP you'll have to deal with an emulation layer as stated by Creative themselves making the whole relevance of plugging an EMU20K sound card questionable.

It is convenient that software emulation exists since it's always better than nothing working at all especially since hardware accelerated EAX was not used on that many titles, however the quality of that emulation compared to the real deal still remains a point of debates up to these days across various forums.