mkarcher wrote on 2025-06-12, 17:38:

ksiumaxx wrote on 2025-06-11, 07:08:

When I select the AWE32 in any game it sounds absolutely horrible, and in some games it doesn't even play the music correctly and messes up the notes, so I just select Adlib instead.

While the small onboard sample set of the AWE32 isn't necessarily great, especially compared to a Sound Canvas, it is definitely supposed to be a level up from AdLib, and that's how I remember my SB32 in DOS games with AWE support. I suspect your card was broken, given the experience you report.

i dont play much games, but when i do, sometimes when have to chose awe64 or sc-55 i use awe, i like more the sound

The SC-55 not always give better sound than awe

ksiumaxx wrote on 2025-06-12, 18:10:

I still own the card, and I tested it like 2 weeks ago – that's when I had my first ever impression of it. Like I said, the card […]
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mkarcher wrote on 2025-06-12, 17:38:

ksiumaxx wrote on 2025-06-11, 07:08:

When I select the AWE32 in any game it sounds absolutely horrible, and in some games it doesn't even play the music correctly and messes up the notes, so I just select Adlib instead.

While the small onboard sample set of the AWE32 isn't necessarily great, especially compared to a Sound Canvas, it is definitely supposed to be a level up from AdLib, and that's how I remember my SB32 in DOS games with AWE support. I suspect your card was broken, given the experience you report.

I still own the card, and I tested it like 2 weeks ago – that's when I had my first ever impression of it. Like I said, the card is giving me some issues under Windows 95 when using its built-in wavetable. When listening to .mid files, it sounds worse than the Adlib interpretation it has. All the instruments have a cracking noise and are really low quality. In games it's a bit better, but this improvement is not consistent across all titles. Some games don't even recognise it as an AWE32, some games have issues with playing music (hanging notes or notes not playing at all), and in some games it sounds alright. Not what I would've expected from a card which has such a lot of positive opinions.
It has no problems with sound effects or Adlib emulation. That part of the AWE64 didn't produce any issues; that's why I said it just makes no sense to me to buy another one in the future when I can use an SB16 and get identical results. It might be better with the AWE32 or AWE64 Gold, but they are out of my price range – I got a really good deal for the Value I own.
I don't see one reason why the AWE64 would be a good choice for gaming apart from the built-in MIDI wavetable, which like I said, doesn't sound too great in my opinion. I see why people would buy the AWE32 or SB32, because they have built-in RAM connectors which allow for use of soundfonts. I know it's possible to buy a SIMMCONN adapter for the AWE64 – which I might buy in the future if I get a good deal on it – but what's even the point when you can buy the AWE32, which can have built-in OPL3 and ability to add more memory out of the box?
Also, you mentioned comparing it to the Sound Canvas. I don't own one, or any MIDI external device, but when comparing the AWE64 Value to a Yamaha built-in sound card in some Pentium 2 machine I have (I don't remember what card exactly it is), the difference is mind-blowing.
I don't want to cause an argument, this is just my opinion about the card. Mabye if I get another example in the future I will be amazed, but the one I currently own is just an SB16 with crappy MIDI.

Blame your defective card not awe quality sound

mkarcher wrote on 2025-06-09, 13:55:

You can go wrong with the ES1868/ES1869 if you expect to get 16-bit sound from games that do not specifically support that card.

Are there any games with 16-bit samples that work well on a 486 ?

Grzyb wrote on 2025-06-12, 18:32:

Are there any games with 16-bit samples that work well on a 486 ?

Probably most titles released in 93/94 as listed in this thread: A List of DOS Games with 16-Bit Sound

Disclaimer: I've never owned a 486, so this is based purely on looking at the system requirements.

Anyways 16bit in DOS for a fast 486 is something nice, wav, mp3, and even mod, s3m, etc etc players in 16bits sound much better, in 8bits add much noise

But a lot of SB Pro compatible cards, in windows 3.1 have WSS compatibility, then this help

ksiumaxx wrote on 2025-06-12, 18:10:

I still own the card, and I tested it like 2 weeks ago – that's when I had my first ever impression of it. Like I said, the card […]
Show full quote

I still own the card, and I tested it like 2 weeks ago – that's when I had my first ever impression of it. Like I said, the card is giving me some issues under Windows 95 when using its built-in wavetable. When listening to .mid files, it sounds worse than the Adlib interpretation it has. All the instruments have a cracking noise and are really low quality. In games it's a bit better, but this improvement is not consistent across all titles. Some games don't even recognise it as an AWE32, some games have issues with playing music (hanging notes or notes not playing at all), and in some games it sounds alright. Not what I would've expected from a card which has such a lot of positive opinions.
It has no problems with sound effects or Adlib emulation. That part of the AWE64 didn't produce any issues; that's why I said it just makes no sense to me to buy another one in the future when I can use an SB16 and get identical results. It might be better with the AWE32 or AWE64 Gold, but they are out of my price range – I got a really good deal for the Value I own.
I don't see one reason why the AWE64 would be a good choice for gaming apart from the built-in MIDI wavetable, which like I said, doesn't sound too great in my opinion. I see why people would buy the AWE32 or SB32, because they have built-in RAM connectors which allow for use of soundfonts. I know it's possible to buy a SIMMCONN adapter for the AWE64 – which I might buy in the future if I get a good deal on it – but what's even the point when you can buy the AWE32, which can have built-in OPL3 and ability to add more memory out of the box?
Also, you mentioned comparing it to the Sound Canvas. I don't own one, or any MIDI external device, but when comparing the AWE64 Value to a Yamaha built-in sound card in some Pentium 2 machine I have (I don't remember what card exactly it is), the difference is mind-blowing.
I don't want to cause an argument, this is just my opinion about the card. Mabye if I get another example in the future I will be amazed, but the one I currently own is just an SB16 with crappy MIDI.

It's possible to use a modern PC in place of a MIDI synth. With Munt for MT32, the Yamaha synth, and now SC55Emu. You can now play with all of the major MIDI targets, even if it's just listing to ripped MIDI files so you can sample music.

Phil has a video showing how it's done, but skip the Virtual Sound Canvas stuff and sub in SC55Emu.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRyPjvbDkvg

mkarcher wrote on 2025-06-12, 17:38:

ksiumaxx wrote on 2025-06-11, 07:08:

When I select the AWE32 in any game it sounds absolutely horrible, and in some games it doesn't even play the music correctly and messes up the notes, so I just select Adlib instead.

While the small onboard sample set of the AWE32 isn't necessarily great, especially compared to a Sound Canvas, it is definitely supposed to be a level up from AdLib, and that's how I remember my SB32 in DOS games with AWE support. I suspect your card was broken, given the experience you report.

i am playing with sb awe64 value yesterday, 512kb -> 2Mb upgrade and had same problem, weird music notes (even without any soundfont loaded) on windows or dos diagnose. I have tested ram with creative diagnostics and has passed ok.
Today i replaced the chip with another brand and works fine. I think that a "bad" ram chip can mess with soundfont rom

LoStSOul wrote on 2025-06-12, 20:54:

Today i replaced the chip with another brand and works fine. I think that a "bad" ram chip can mess with soundfont rom

RAM and ROM on the EMU8K are on the same bus. They share address and data lines. So a defective or incorrectly soldered RAM chip can definitely disturb ROM access.

I dont really want to use any modern mods or other software that come from now to make stuff from back then work as people now wish it would have been.

I was kinda hoping for something to be "period correct"
The sound card doesnt have to be from the same year as the PC is, I think the CPU I have is from 1992, or at least thats when it was released, but I dont want modern things in there...
A 1995 sound card isnt inauthentic in the same was as a 2005 piece of software is.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-06-12, 18:36:

Grzyb wrote on 2025-06-12, 18:32:

Are there any games with 16-bit samples that work well on a 486 ?

Probably most titles released in 93/94 as listed in this thread: A List of DOS Games with 16-Bit Sound

That seems to list 16-bit output but not what the original samples were recorded at though. I would suspect most games from the early 90s probably used 8-bit / 11kHz samples.

Shponglefan wrote on 2025-06-12, 23:19:

That seems to list 16-bit output but not what the original samples were recorded at though. I would suspect most games from the early 90s probably used 8-bit / 11kHz samples.

Cloudschatze did those tests so he might know more.

That's why I like the Yamaha with the low-pass filter mod. Those 11 kHz samples sound a lot smoother with the filter enabled. And you can turn it off manually when it isn't needed.

A game that only contains 8-bit samples, but mixes them to play several SFX at a time, may actually benefit from a 16-bit output device.

I guess that's the case with majority of games from that list.

Shponglefan wrote on 2025-06-12, 23:19:

That seems to list 16-bit output but not what the original samples were recorded at though. I would suspect most games from the early 90s probably used 8-bit / 11kHz samples.

I feel like this was addressed adequately within that thread, but just to quote myself:

Cloudschatze wrote on 2018-04-23, 17:05:

One of the misconceptions I'd tried to address with this thread is the notion that only 16-bit samples benefit from 16-bit playb […]
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One of the misconceptions I'd tried to address with this thread is the notion that only 16-bit samples benefit from 16-bit playback. As mentioned early on, it is fairly common for mid/late-90's audio engines to mix several 8-bit mono @ 11kHz (or greater) samples into a stereo stream, while also providing software effects like reverb or spatialization.

Using an example of straight mixing/playback of eight 8-bit samples, theory suggests that if there isn't at least 11-bit mixing resolution, with corresponding 11-bit output, there is a necessary loss of information and subsequent increase in noise. In this example, 16-bit mixing and output is more-than-adequate for full-resolution playback, while 8-bit routines are not.

In other words, and concerning the summation of multiple 8-bit samples, irrespective of frequency:

8-bit mixing, 8-bit output = loss of resolution (Worst)
16-bit mixing, 8-bit output = loss of resolution (Better)
16-bit mixing, 16-bit output = theoretically lossless (Best)

Is there any reason to not buy the Creative Sound Blaster 16 CT2890?

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-06-13, 21:54:

Is there any reason to not buy the Creative Sound Blaster 16 CT2890?

Sound Blaster: From best to worst

I guess the short answer is: depends if you're going to connect any MIDI devices to it, both external and internal...

Grzyb wrote on 2025-06-13, 23:51:

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-06-13, 21:54:

Is there any reason to not buy the Creative Sound Blaster 16 CT2890?

Sound Blaster: From best to worst

I guess the short answer is: depends if you're going to connect any MIDI devices to it, both external and internal...

Yeah erm.
I have no idea what that means. A MIDI device to me means nothing at all.
My first sound card was a PnP PCI Sound blaster. I installed the drivers and plugged in the speakers and it was great.

MIDI files I know, theyre old computer music files ;]

All that aside I intend on plugging in a set of speakers to listen to those 8 bit musical dreams.

All the stuff the guys are talking about above goes completely over my head. I didnt even bother reading most of it.

In this case, the CT2890 will be just fine.

Grzyb wrote on 2025-06-14, 09:06:

In this case, the CT2890 will be just fine.

Thank you.

Its not that Im not grateful for all of the extra input and comments about sound cards capabilities, I just dont understand any of it.
It wasnt until you asked that about MIDI devices that I spent 5 minutes looking about and found that an old ISA sound card isnt what I thought it was, that a MIDI device has its own sounds built into it and the signal sent from a game is more of a que to the sound card to play its own sounds. Or words to that effect anyway, Im sure I got something wrong in there.

Maybe in the coming months I will be able to look back at this thread and understand it more when I find the card I get doesnt work.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-06-14, 14:46:

an old ISA sound card isnt what I thought it was, that a MIDI device has its own sounds built into it and the signal sent from a game is more of a que to the sound card to play its own sounds.

Actually, an ISA sound card is both what you think and also what you found when looking for MIDI devices. A typical ISA sound card in a 90s game uses both capabilities. Sound effects in the game are usually made from pre-recorded samples that are played as-is by the sound card. On the other hand, old computers were not powerful enough to calculate background music in real-time, so for music playback, the sound card is instructed to generate "its own sounds" as you say. The Soundblaster 16 you are buying can do both, so no need to worry. The main issue about the music generation of the Soundblaster 16 is that it uses a quite simple mathematical model to "create its own sounds", while professional music synthesizer cards use recorded samples of physical instruments as "their own sounds".

Actually, the Soundblaster 16 can do three things:

1. It can play pre-recorded samples (but only one at a time)
2. It can calculate music using a simple mathematical model (FM synthesis)
3. It can send queued music data (in MIDI format) to a professional MIDI synthesizer

The "hanging note bug" of the Soundblaster cards affects only the third capability: Sending data to a professional MIDI-based music synthesizer. Most gamers in the 90s did not own a MIDI-based music synthesizer, so all games are perfectly able to play back sound and game music using the first two capabilities, and they work (mostly) fine on the CT2890. If you want "more realistic" music than the Soundblaster 16 can calculate (which you generally do not need to enjoy 486 games), you would need to purchase a MIDI synthesizer as well. MIDI synthesizers for the Soundblaster 16 come in two shapes: As a plug-in board you can add to your sound card. These plug-in cards are called Wave Blaster (compatible) cards, because that's the name Creative Labs used for them. There are also external synthesizers, like the Sound Canvas or a competing Yamaha model. These synthesizers can be connected to the Game Port of the Soundblaster 16.

As long as you don't choose MPU-401/GM/MIDI as music playback method, but use "AdLib", "OPL2", "OPL3", "Soundblaster", "Soundblaster Pro" or "Soundblaster 16" as music playback method, you do not need a dedicated MIDI synthesizer. This also means you do not need to worry about hanging notes. Most likely, your gaming experience will be fine with that card.

mkarcher wrote on 2025-06-14, 17:16:

Actually, an ISA sound card is both what you think and also what you found when looking for MIDI devices. A typical ISA sound ca […]
Show full quote

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2025-06-14, 14:46:

an old ISA sound card isnt what I thought it was, that a MIDI device has its own sounds built into it and the signal sent from a game is more of a que to the sound card to play its own sounds.

Actually, an ISA sound card is both what you think and also what you found when looking for MIDI devices. A typical ISA sound card in a 90s game uses both capabilities. Sound effects in the game are usually made from pre-recorded samples that are played as-is by the sound card. On the other hand, old computers were not powerful enough to calculate background music in real-time, so for music playback, the sound card is instructed to generate "its own sounds" as you say. The Soundblaster 16 you are buying can do both, so no need to worry. The main issue about the music generation of the Soundblaster 16 is that it uses a quite simple mathematical model to "create its own sounds", while professional music synthesizer cards use recorded samples of physical instruments as "their own sounds".

Actually, the Soundblaster 16 can do three things:

1. It can play pre-recorded samples (but only one at a time)
2. It can calculate music using a simple mathematical model (FM synthesis)
3. It can send queued music data (in MIDI format) to a professional MIDI synthesizer

The "hanging note bug" of the Soundblaster cards affects only the third capability: Sending data to a professional MIDI-based music synthesizer. Most gamers in the 90s did not own a MIDI-based music synthesizer, so all games are perfectly able to play back sound and game music using the first two capabilities, and they work (mostly) fine on the CT2890. If you want "more realistic" music than the Soundblaster 16 can calculate (which you generally do not need to enjoy 486 games), you would need to purchase a MIDI synthesizer as well. MIDI synthesizers for the Soundblaster 16 come in two shapes: As a plug-in board you can add to your sound card. These plug-in cards are called Wave Blaster (compatible) cards, because that's the name Creative Labs used for them. There are also external synthesizers, like the Sound Canvas or a competing Yamaha model. These synthesizers can be connected to the Game Port of the Soundblaster 16.

As long as you don't choose MPU-401/GM/MIDI as music playback method, but use "AdLib", "OPL2", "OPL3", "Soundblaster", "Soundblaster Pro" or "Soundblaster 16" as music playback method, you do not need a dedicated MIDI synthesizer. This also means you do not need to worry about hanging notes. Most likely, your gaming experience will be fine with that card.

I never realised there was so much to it all.

I think Ill pick up the Sound Blaster 16 I mentioned in my first post and see how it goes. If it puts out SNES style music Ill be happy with that.