Hmm with a P3 866 your choice of non nvidia GPUs are limited but a Radeon 9600XT AGP wouldn't hurt if you don't have an issue with leaving GPU performance on the floor due to the slower 866 P3, they tend to be on the cheaper side as they don't die that easily so plenty are around. (Avoid the 9700 Pro, 9800 Pro or 9600 Pro, they are the older ones with the inadequate cooler and have a track record of being DOA, the XT cards are the newer refresh models with better coolers and temp sensors)

You could also grab the ATI Cockroach the Radeon 9250 AGP, there are plenty around so make sure you get a 128bit bus version or grab a Radeon 9500 if you want a little more than the 9250.

If you want some flair you could grab a Matrox Parahelia 256 AGP but they are neither cheap or easy to get but I have one and its a cool card.

As for fog tables and palletised texture there are people here that are far more knowledgeable than me on which ATI cards can handle this and which drivers are needed.

Trashbytes wrote on Today, 15:42:

Hmm with a P3 866 your choice of non nvidia GPUs are limited but a Radeon 9600XT AGP wouldn't hurt if you don't have an issue with leaving GPU performance on the floor due to the slower 866 P3, they tend to be on the cheaper side as they don't die that easily so plenty are around.

I feel like I was probably limiting performance with the FX Card anyways, due to the CPU, so like, I'm fine if that happens to be the case again. Any idea if they support palletized textures and fog tables? Also, thanks for the warning on the cards to avoid. I wouldn't have known, otherwise.

A lower end card from the Radeon 9000 series could be an option if you want something cheap but I'm pretty sure those don't support table fog.

Have you looked at voodoo 3s? They're not as bad as the 5s price-wise and fast enough for 98se games. I'd only avoid them if you're looking at playing games from 2001 onwards. Up to then they're generally ok.

Shadic95 wrote on Today, 15:46:

Trashbytes wrote on Today, 15:42:

Hmm with a P3 866 your choice of non nvidia GPUs are limited but a Radeon 9600XT AGP wouldn't hurt if you don't have an issue with leaving GPU performance on the floor due to the slower 866 P3, they tend to be on the cheaper side as they don't die that easily so plenty are around.

I feel like I was probably limiting performance with the FX Card anyways, due to the CPU, so like, I'm fine if that happens to be the case again. Any idea if they support palletized textures and fog tables? Also, thanks for the warning on the cards to avoid. I wouldn't have known, otherwise.

For support I'm sure one of the experts here on such things will chime in, I know ATI does support them but only with some drivers and not with others so you will need to wait for them to post.

There have been plenty of discussion on the topic, so searching Vogons may get you to the right thread.

If you think Nvidia 9x drivers are hot garbage wait till you go ATI.

Ati really improved their drivers during the xp and 9x00 period, but for the prior period ati was notorious for bad drivers. It was one of the many reasons to go Nvidia.

However stick to the 9x00 hardware and appropriate drivers and you shouldn't have any problems.

Fish3r wrote on Today, 15:47:

A lower end card from the Radeon 9000 series could be an option if you want something cheap but I'm pretty sure those don't support table fog.

Have you looked at voodoo 3s? They're not as bad as the 5s price-wise and fast enough for 98se games. I'd only avoid them if you're looking at playing games from 2001 onwards. Up to then they're generally ok.

Hm... Not sure. I used to have a Voodoo 3 PCI at some point, and I did like that card. I feel like it fit the Pentium 2 300MHz build it was in, but for a much more powerful machine, I am not sure. Games like LEGO Rock Raiders are super GPU heavy, and I do not believe the Voodoo 3 would handle it well. Plus, support for some newer games like Sonic Adventure DX, and some other games up to around... 2004? Would be nice. That's what made the GeForce FX 5200 so appealing, as it seemed like a dream card that could handle the old games fine, while having barely enough juice for those somewhat newer games. If it wasn't for it's awful driver support, I would keep sticking with this card.

Also, bummer. I don't know how many games rely on fog tables, but I feel like for the sake of compatibility, a GPU I get should be able to support it.

Shagittarius wrote on Today, 15:50:

If you think Nvidia 9x drivers are hot garbage wait till you go ATI.

Ati really improved their drivers during the xp and 9x00 period, but for the prior period ati was notorious for bad drivers. It was one of the many reasons to go nvidia.

...So it's bad there, too? Does that really mean Matrox and Voodoo are the only good options without bad drivers? Jeez, what a mess... I *really* don't want to pay the insane prices of the Voodoo, but maybe I have to, if the news with Matrox cards is also not good...

Shagittarius wrote on Today, 15:50:

However stick to the 9x00 hardware and appropriate drivers and you shouldn't have any problems.

This was added after I made my post... well, I guess it's not entirely off the table, even if the lack of fog table support is unfortunate.

No sorry I had to clarify for you I think you will do well with the ati 9x00 series. I just hope the problem isn't more related to your system or config because it would suck to have issues with the ati card too.

I use a 9800pro in my 98 machine. I had issues back in the day with incompatibility with the 9700pro but that was fixed with the 9800.

Shagittarius wrote on Today, 15:56:

No sorry I had to clarify for you I think you Wil do well with the qti 9x00 series. I just hope the problem isn't more related to your system or config because it would suck to have issues with the ati card too.

I use a 9800pro in my 98 machine.

Yeah, I saw the added clarification after I refreshed the page. Sorry about that. I don't *think* it's an issue with my system, considering the RIVA TNT was having some of the same problems on a different system, with that one being PCI instead of AGP, I think it really is just down to driver issues.

Shagittarius wrote on Today, 15:56:

No sorry I had to clarify for you I think you will do well with the ati 9x00 series. I just hope the problem isn't more related to your system or config because it would suck to have issues with the ati card too.

I use a 9800pro in my 98 machine.

One of the lucky ones with a working one !

I have two dead ones myself and a working one I resurrected, no idea how long itll live but I don't use it much, the old girl has already served her time no need to beat a dead horse 😀

Trashbytes wrote on Today, 15:59:

Shagittarius wrote on Today, 15:56:

No sorry I had to clarify for you I think you will do well with the ati 9x00 series. I just hope the problem isn't more related to your system or config because it would suck to have issues with the ati card too.

I use a 9800pro in my 98 machine.

One of the lucky ones with a working one !

I have two dead ones myself and a working one I resurrected, no idea how long itll live but I don't use it much, the old girl has already served her time no need to beat a dead horse 😀

Yeah that is a problem 9800pros can be risky. I've only ever owned that one but I imagine the 9600 or an x800 or x850 should still be fine and in the driver sweet-spot.

Actually I think an x850 might be cheap and reliable. Anyone have experience with them?

Edit , just looked when did x850s start going for over 200 usd?

So... if I have the correct drivers, the Radeon 9600XT AGP *might* be okay? I really don't fully understand how needed or important fog table support is, so, if that's all I'm losing, then maybe this is the way to go? If I can get some clarification on what the best and most stable drivers are, and how bad it is to not have those features, I might just go this route, unless there is another I'm not aware of that would be good as well, without being super insanely expensive.

EDIT: Someone on Reddit ( https://www.reddit.com/r/RetroWindowsGaming/c … nt=share_button )
is suggesting that the GeForce 3 would be suitable for a Pentium 3, which is not what I would expect to read. But I am so conflicted about this, considering the driver issues I have been having. Maybe it's less bad with an older card like this? Also, Rock Raiders may just suck, since it uses Direct 3D Retained Mode, a weird thing few retail games even use. None of my other games have that weird DDHelp issue, so maybe I just suck it up, deal with the system crashing with that one game, and in theory have a good time otherwise?

EDIT 2: Aaaaaand, all of the GeForce 3's are sold outside of America. Great...

Shagittarius wrote on Today, 16:02:

Trashbytes wrote on Today, 15:59:

Shagittarius wrote on Today, 15:56:

No sorry I had to clarify for you I think you will do well with the ati 9x00 series. I just hope the problem isn't more related to your system or config because it would suck to have issues with the ati card too.

I use a 9800pro in my 98 machine.

One of the lucky ones with a working one !

I have two dead ones myself and a working one I resurrected, no idea how long itll live but I don't use it much, the old girl has already served her time no need to beat a dead horse 😀

Yeah that is a problem 9800pros can be risky. I've only ever owned that one but I imagine the 9600 or an x800 or x850 should still be fine and in the driver sweet-spot.

Actually I think an x850 might be cheap and reliable. Anyone have experience with them?

the X850 AGP was the last AGP card from ATI and as such its drivers are not that compatible with older titles and because ATI had moved to PCIe with that card it didn't get a ton of updates on 98.

Some good posts here

Re: Table Fog & 8-bit Paletted Textures

regarding table fog support on radeons.

Well, I'm sort of at a crossroads here, and I don't really know what to do. In regards to the DDHelp issue, so far, that issue has only ever happened with LEGO Rock Raiders, a game that used D3DRM. Other games have worked fine, without weird crashing. And, as weird as the whole having to install the driver twice thing was, as well as the New option being removed from the right click menu is, it otherwise has been working *fine*, so... Maybe I just need to suck it up, accept the issues it does have, and be grateful it otherwise works well elsewhere?

Sorry if I've been incredibly rude or ungrateful sounding in any of this thread, just... Even knowing that 9X is just perpetually a mess of stability and such, it has been frustrating how like, the non Voodoo options all seem to have weird issues. And makes me wish all the more that those cards were at all affordable these days.

At any rate, since it was suggested in this thread, and on Reddit, that an FX5200 isn't really exactly fitting for what my machine is, is there a card that is still plentiful that would fit the machine better? If I have to sacrifice DX9 support, so be it. After reading the FX5200 drivers eat away at the CPU, I am having second thoughts about having this card in my system, and do wonder if something else would be better. I am open to NVIDIA cards again, since it seems like, otherwise, the options are just way too narrow, and the issues that do happen, aren't bad enough to exclude them entirely.

Have you looked up fixes for rock raiders? I have a 9x machine with an FX5600 in it and there's some games where I've needed to use patches (eg. NFS:HS) to get them to work but otherwise it's fine. IIRC rock raiders also got a re-release to make it more compatible with XP and newer hardware that might solve your issues?

As for table fog & paletted textures, Geforce FX supports both (Fog is emulated, but it works fine).

I made the voodoo recommendation on the assumption you wanted to only run 90s games, but since you're talking about eg. Sonic Adventure DX then it'd probably be better to try and make what you have work before going out and buying something.

Fish3r wrote on Today, 16:44:

Have you looked up fixes for rock raiders? I have a 9x machine with an FX5600 in it and there's some games where I've needed to use patches (eg. NFS:HS) to get them to work but otherwise it's fine. IIRC rock raiders also got a re-release to make it more compatible with XP and newer hardware that might solve your issues?

So those later re-releases change one thing about the game, which is, no drm. I am already using the no drm exe. The game is infamous for being hard to run on modern systems without specific patches fixing bugs with specific weapons and a dgvoodoo2 setup. It works fine on the system as is, aside from the DDHelp issue upon exiting the game and relaunching it, which I mentioned in the initial post. As much as that issue sucks, I might just have to deal with it. The reset button on my case and the fast boot times make it not the worst, even if undesirable.

Fish3r wrote on Today, 16:44:

As for table fog & paletted textures, Geforce FX supports both (Fog is emulated, but it works fine).

I am well aware. I had read the vogons wiki and found that info, which is what informed my purchase of the card, to begin with.

Fish3r wrote on Today, 16:44:

I made the voodoo recommendation on the assumption you wanted to only run 90s games, but since you're talking about eg. Sonic Adventure DX then it'd probably be better to try and make what you have work before going out and buying something.

Truthfully, games that new are more of a novelty on the machine, rather than a serious thing, for me. Games like Rock Raiders, UT99, and a few others that are slipping my mind, running well are what matter the most to me. Considering Rock Raiders recommends a 32MB GPU, something with at least that, and a 128 bit memory bus, seems best.

But, I suppose that may not be too important for now. As I've mentioned, aside from the DDHelp issue, and some other minor issues (which were fixed, to some extent), the card is otherwise working fine, and I might have just been making a fuss for no good reason. Unless there is a good reason to swap off it (despite possible concerns about the drivers being CPU intense?), I think I'll just stick with it, for now.

You are bound to find games that won't run on every config for some reason. The best you can do is maintain multiple platforms and hope that it will run on one of them. Or just say bollocks to it all and let it go.

What updates have you installed on the 98 machine? If you are using the unofficial service pack, then that is most likely leading to all sorts of weird issues.

The only updates you should be installing are the ones from the 2004 Microsoft update CD ISO that are available on vogonsdrivers.

Do you have the chipset drivers installed?

Have you messed with AGP aperture size or PCI latency in BIOS?

Have you run a. RAM tests ng program to make sure you aren't getting random errors from a faulty or incompatible stick of RAM?

Do you have the latest available BIOS installed on the motherboard?

I think the OP might just be a bit unaware of how delicate Win9x is. It is very easy to crash this OS. It doesn't have the various process and memory protection techniques of NT. Any misbehaving software or drivers or incompatibilities somewhere can lead to memory corruption and that's it. That's what is crashing DDHelp. Once this happens you need to reboot or more likely, hit reset. Of course this can also corrupt files on the delicate FAT partition. The OS is also susceptible to "DLL hell" in which you can have software install older or newer versions of a particular library file that isn't compatible with some other piece of software already using it.

If you go beyond DirectX 7.0a with Win9x, that seems to be a cause of DDHelp crashes. Possibly related to VXD sound card drivers. I see you have a Aureal card and that is using VXD based drivers.

Other sources of problems can be no-cd cracks, other VXD drivers for hardware you've installed, virtual CD software.

I try to use Win2K or XP unless I have hardware that absolutely needs Win9x.