VOGONS


First post, by RetroVein

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Hello everyone. This is my first post on Vogons. First of all, I'd like to thank all users, who make this great forum possible, and who are building such a valuable resource of information.

I am a seasoned technical user, and I would like to share a problem that is beyond me at this point: a defective 486 motherboard that I cannot make work.

Motherboard: LS-486E rev C2 (supports EDO). Chipset 85C496 + 85C497
L2 cache: 256 kbytes + tag RAM

The board come with no activity at all. The reset signal was not released by the chipset. After using dielectric contact cleaner on the socket 3, the reset issue disappeared. But the POST fails (no PCI video output), with code 41 0d and continuous short beeps.

When there's a floppy drive attached, the BIOS tries to read from a floppy (I suppose that BIOS checksum fails, and it is trying to find a binary on the floppy to flash itself).

Steps done:

- Cleaning with soft brush, then alcohol, and finally dielectric contact cleaner.
- Removing the socket 3 top cover, and cleaning the CPU contacts directly.
- Reprogram BIOS (AT 27C010A) using external programmer, on new chip.
- Replace CMOS battery with fresh one and reset settings using jumper.

Diagnosis steps:

- Map all SIMM pins to the chipset (SiS496). No trace seems to be open. Address lines go to a pair of 74F244. Data, CAS and RAS go directly to the SiS496.
- Oscilloscope probing on SIMM pins (mainly address lines, all CAS and RAS and some data lines).
- Check diodes and SIP resistors.
- Inspection under microscope.
- IR camera inspection (no suspicious device).
- Tried a single good EDO and FPM, on all SIMM slots.

Now, the weird thing:

After I accidentally shorted an output pin of a 74F244 with an input from the SiS496, and when powering off and on again, ¡the motherboard boots! I could enter BIOS, change settings, try to boot OS, etc.

But then, after power down, all goes to the previous error state, and post code 41 0d, continuous short beeps.

I found a strange signal on address line #2 (A2). When the signal is high, at the output of 74F244, there are what seem castle battlements (see image attached).

The attachment 74F244 output.JPG is no longer available

The input to the 74F244 (from SiS496 is fine, see image attached).

The attachment 74F244 input.JPG is no longer available

So I decide to replace that 74F244 with a new one (I only have one DIP20, so I had to use kynar fly-wires). Same behavior.

Now, this is the point I decided to search for help.
I can only think of two more possible partial solutions (one being modify BIOS to use the more relaxing DRAM wait-states possible, and see if that helps).

Any ideas, recommendations, info, etc., is very much welcome.
Could this mobo get to live again? 😀

Thank you very much.

Reply 1 of 6, by PC@LIVE

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Usually with those codes, excluding hardware problems, reprogramming the BIOS chip makes the PC work again, if you are interested on Tony359's YouTube channel there is the video on an ASUS Slot1, which after several repairs, he solved by reprogramming.
Here I would say that if you are able to do some investigations, I would go looking for something like interrupted track, bad welding, or defective SMD, maybe it could be somewhere the problem, then having found a way to make it work, it is a great clue, that there is something wrong, unfortunately I can't suggest a solution or where to focus the research.

AMD 286-16 287-10 4MB
AMD 386SX-33 4MB
AMD 386DX-40 Intel 387 8MB
Cyrix 486DLC-40 IIT387-40 8MB
486DX2-66 +many others
P60 48MB
iDX4-100 32MB
AMD 5X86-133 16MB VLB CL5429 2MB
AMD K62+ 550 SOYO 5EMA+ +many others
AST Pentium Pro 200 MHz L2 256KB

Reply 2 of 6, by rasz_pl

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

impressive detective work
afaik ram detection happens on slowest safe chipset settings so nothing to be gained there, not to mention 0d means ram was detected and initialized successfully at this point

> code 41 0d

0D in this bios is Video bios execution

seg000:F93D                 mov     al, 0Dh
seg000:F93F mov dx, 80h
seg000:F942 out dx, al ; manufacture's diagnostic checkpoint (POST code)
seg000:F943 mov ax, 0C000h
seg000:F946 mov ds, ax
seg000:F948 assume ds:nothing
seg000:F948 cmp word ptr ds:0, 0AA55h
seg000:F94E jz short loc_FF971

seg000:F971 loc_FF971: ; CODE XREF: seg000:F94E↑j
seg000:F971 push bp
seg000:F972 call far ptr 0C000h:3

41 is decompressing rest of the bios

seg000:F977                 pop     bp
seg000:F978 mov ax, 3
seg000:F97B int 10h ; - VIDEO - SET VIDEO MODE
seg000:F97B ; AL = mode
seg000:F97D lea ax, ds:0E000h
seg000:F981 mov cx, 45h ; 'E'
seg000:F984 xor dx, dx
seg000:F986 call sub_FFAED
seg000:F989
seg000:F989 loc_FF989: ; CODE XREF: seg000:F96F↑j
seg000:F989 lea ax, ds:0FEF8h
seg000:F98D mov cx, 17h
seg000:F990 nop
seg000:F991 mov dx, 0FF01h
seg000:F994 call sub_FFAED
seg000:F997 test byte ptr [bp+0], 1
seg000:F99B jz short loc_FF9AB
seg000:F99D lea ax, ds:0FEBAh
seg000:F9A1 mov cx, 19h
seg000:F9A4 nop
seg000:F9A5 mov dx, 0FF01h
seg000:F9A8 call sub_FFAED
seg000:F9AB
seg000:F9AB loc_FF9AB: ; CODE XREF: seg000:F99B↑j
seg000:F9AB test byte ptr [bp+0], 2
seg000:F9AF jz short loc_FF9BF
seg000:F9B1 lea ax, ds:0FED3h
seg000:F9B5 mov cx, 25h ; '%'
seg000:F9B8 nop
seg000:F9B9 mov dx, 0FF01h
seg000:F9BC call sub_FFAED
seg000:F9BF
seg000:F9BF loc_FF9BF: ; CODE XREF: seg000:F9AF↑j
seg000:F9BF mov al, 41h ; 'A'
seg000:F9C1 mov dx, 80h
PC@LIVE wrote on Yesterday, 19:27:

Usually with those codes, excluding hardware problems, reprogramming the BIOS chip makes the PC work again

sure looks like it! Either bios still corrupted (first 64KB), eprom A16 address line not connecting reliably, or bad ram that wasnt caught during ram detection? whatever it is its crashing during upper bios chip decompression

>After I accidentally shorted an output pin of a 74F244 with an input from the SiS496, and when powering off and on again, ¡the motherboard boots!

another impressive discovery 😮
which pin to which pin exactly?

https://github.com/raszpl/sigrok-disk FM/MFM/RLL decoder
https://github.com/raszpl/FIC-486-GAC-2-Cache-Module (AT&T Globalyst)
https://github.com/raszpl/386RC-16 ram board
https://github.com/raszpl/440BX Reference Design adapted to Kicad

Reply 3 of 6, by PC@LIVE

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
rasz_pl wrote on Yesterday, 21:19:
impressive detective work afaik ram detection happens on slowest safe chipset settings so nothing to be gained there, not to men […]
Show full quote

impressive detective work
afaik ram detection happens on slowest safe chipset settings so nothing to be gained there, not to mention 0d means ram was detected and initialized successfully at this point

> code 41 0d

0D in this bios is Video bios execution

seg000:F93D                 mov     al, 0Dh
seg000:F93F mov dx, 80h
seg000:F942 out dx, al ; manufacture's diagnostic checkpoint (POST code)
seg000:F943 mov ax, 0C000h
seg000:F946 mov ds, ax
seg000:F948 assume ds:nothing
seg000:F948 cmp word ptr ds:0, 0AA55h
seg000:F94E jz short loc_FF971

seg000:F971 loc_FF971: ; CODE XREF: seg000:F94E↑j
seg000:F971 push bp
seg000:F972 call far ptr 0C000h:3

41 is decompressing rest of the bios

seg000:F977                 pop     bp
seg000:F978 mov ax, 3
seg000:F97B int 10h ; - VIDEO - SET VIDEO MODE
seg000:F97B ; AL = mode
seg000:F97D lea ax, ds:0E000h
seg000:F981 mov cx, 45h ; 'E'
seg000:F984 xor dx, dx
seg000:F986 call sub_FFAED
seg000:F989
seg000:F989 loc_FF989: ; CODE XREF: seg000:F96F↑j
seg000:F989 lea ax, ds:0FEF8h
seg000:F98D mov cx, 17h
seg000:F990 nop
seg000:F991 mov dx, 0FF01h
seg000:F994 call sub_FFAED
seg000:F997 test byte ptr [bp+0], 1
seg000:F99B jz short loc_FF9AB
seg000:F99D lea ax, ds:0FEBAh
seg000:F9A1 mov cx, 19h
seg000:F9A4 nop
seg000:F9A5 mov dx, 0FF01h
seg000:F9A8 call sub_FFAED
seg000:F9AB
seg000:F9AB loc_FF9AB: ; CODE XREF: seg000:F99B↑j
seg000:F9AB test byte ptr [bp+0], 2
seg000:F9AF jz short loc_FF9BF
seg000:F9B1 lea ax, ds:0FED3h
seg000:F9B5 mov cx, 25h ; '%'
seg000:F9B8 nop
seg000:F9B9 mov dx, 0FF01h
seg000:F9BC call sub_FFAED
seg000:F9BF
seg000:F9BF loc_FF9BF: ; CODE XREF: seg000:F9AF↑j
seg000:F9BF mov al, 41h ; 'A'
seg000:F9C1 mov dx, 80h
PC@LIVE wrote on Yesterday, 19:27:

Usually with those codes, excluding hardware problems, reprogramming the BIOS chip makes the PC work again

sure looks like it! Either bios still corrupted (first 64KB) or bad ram that wasnt caught during ram detection? whatever it is its crashing during upper bios chip decompression

>After I accidentally shorted an output pin of a 74F244 with an input from the SiS496, and when powering off and on again, ¡the motherboard boots!

another impressive discovery 😮
which pin to which pin exactly?

I hope 🤞 you want to share your discovery, even if it doesn't necessarily work on other motherboards, but I'd be curious to see if it's possible to fix the motherboard, and I don't know why it restarts with the error post codes.
Of course I would also suspect that the BIOS chip could have a defect, but thinking about it, it could be a pin with welding to be redone, it goes with the trick, and it doesn't go without it, maybe the trick bypasses the defective pin (?)

AMD 286-16 287-10 4MB
AMD 386SX-33 4MB
AMD 386DX-40 Intel 387 8MB
Cyrix 486DLC-40 IIT387-40 8MB
486DX2-66 +many others
P60 48MB
iDX4-100 32MB
AMD 5X86-133 16MB VLB CL5429 2MB
AMD K62+ 550 SOYO 5EMA+ +many others
AST Pentium Pro 200 MHz L2 256KB

Reply 4 of 6, by RetroVein

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
rasz_pl wrote on Yesterday, 21:19:
afaik ram detection happens on slowest safe chipset settings so nothing to be gained there, not to mention 0d means ram was dete […]
Show full quote

afaik ram detection happens on slowest safe chipset settings so nothing to be gained there, not to mention 0d means ram was detected and initialized successfully at this point

sure looks like it! Either bios still corrupted (first 64KB), eprom A16 address line not connecting reliably, or bad ram that wasnt caught during ram detection? whatever it is its crashing during upper bios chip decompression

>After I accidentally shorted an output pin of a 74F244 with an input from the SiS496, and when powering off and on again, ¡the motherboard boots!

another impressive discovery 😮
which pin to which pin exactly?

Yes, memory seems to be detected, because without any SIMM installed, the beeps are definitely different (continuous, but much longer) and the POST codes are totally different.

I checked continuity between all BIOS pins and the southbridge (85C497), directly from pins to pin (to avoid missing a false contact in the DIP socket or something). But I might consider reflowing at this point... I just tried to avoid reflowing the chipset as that operation is a bit risky and things can get worse.

The pins shorted were A2 (DRAM address line #2, coming out of a 74F244 and going to pin #14 of SIMM modules) and one of the chipset (85C496) outputs (either address line #5 or #6 seem to have worked, which corresponds to 85C496 pins #143 and #144).

This "trick" usually just hangs the motherboard and nothing more. Just sometimes (maybe one out of ten tries), the PC boots perfectly after next reset (to be precise: power down / power up the power supply).

Reply 5 of 6, by RetroVein

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
PC@LIVE wrote on Yesterday, 21:32:

I hope 🤞 you want to share your discovery, even if it doesn't necessarily work on other motherboards, but I'd be curious to see if it's possible to fix the motherboard, and I don't know why it restarts with the error post codes.
Of course I would also suspect that the BIOS chip could have a defect, but thinking about it, it could be a pin with welding to be redone, it goes with the trick, and it doesn't go without it, maybe the trick bypasses the defective pin (?)

Sure! On my last post I already shared the shorted pins which sometimes allows the machine to boot.
I don't know how to reply to several users on the same post, so I posted this new post to reply to yours (please, let me know if there's a better way to do it).

I already tried 2 different BIOS chips (AT27C010) with two different binaries (the one that originally came with board, and the one on retroweb, which is: 03/14/96-SiS-496-497/A/B-2A4IB000C-00).
The behavior is identical 😳
That is, post code 41 0D, short continuous beeps, and I managed to boot at least one time with either them.

Also checks continuity of all pins to the southbridge 85C497. But, as I said in my previous post, maybe is time to reflow both big SMD chips. Just wanted to do everything possible before reflowing, as doing it can damage the board and make things worse.

The really weird thing is that the shortcircuit "trick" happens in the northbridge (between SIMM module and 85C496) but the BIOS is connected to the southbridge (85C497).
How could that short in northbridge bypass a defective pin in the other chip?
Not saying that is impossible.
But right now I cannot think on any (solid) explanation.

Just for fun, here's the replacement of the 74F244. It looks a bit messy, but it works just as well as the original SMD chip.

The attachment 74F244 DIP.JPG is no longer available

(The yellow adhesive tape is just kapton tape to protect components when desoldering the original SMD chip)

Reply 6 of 6, by PC@LIVE

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
RetroVein wrote on Today, 10:15:
Sure! On my last post I already shared the shorted pins which sometimes allows the machine to boot. I don't know how to reply t […]
Show full quote
PC@LIVE wrote on Yesterday, 21:32:

I hope 🤞 you want to share your discovery, even if it doesn't necessarily work on other motherboards, but I'd be curious to see if it's possible to fix the motherboard, and I don't know why it restarts with the error post codes.
Of course I would also suspect that the BIOS chip could have a defect, but thinking about it, it could be a pin with welding to be redone, it goes with the trick, and it doesn't go without it, maybe the trick bypasses the defective pin (?)

Sure! On my last post I already shared the shorted pins which sometimes allows the machine to boot.
I don't know how to reply to several users on the same post, so I posted this new post to reply to yours (please, let me know if there's a better way to do it).

I already tried 2 different BIOS chips (AT27C010) with two different binaries (the one that originally came with board, and the one on retroweb, which is: 03/14/96-SiS-496-497/A/B-2A4IB000C-00).
The behavior is identical 😳
That is, post code 41 0D, short continuous beeps, and I managed to boot at least one time with either them.

Also checks continuity of all pins to the southbridge 85C497. But, as I said in my previous post, maybe is time to reflow both big SMD chips. Just wanted to do everything possible before reflowing, as doing it can damage the board and make things worse.

The really weird thing is that the shortcircuit "trick" happens in the northbridge (between SIMM module and 85C496) but the BIOS is connected to the southbridge (85C497).
How could that short in northbridge bypass a defective pin in the other chip?
Not saying that is impossible.
But right now I cannot think on any (solid) explanation.

Just for fun, here's the replacement of the 74F244. It looks a bit messy, but it works just as well as the original SMD chip.

The attachment 74F244 DIP.JPG is no longer available

(The yellow adhesive tape is just kapton tape to protect components when desoldering the original SMD chip)

Thank you very much for sharing this trick, for the moment as I had already written to you, I have not had a problem similar to yours, that's why normally after reprogramming the PC works again.
And as you wrote I would rule out a problem with the RAM, because I usually use RAM working heads, although there may be a doubt about some bad contact, but since you have found a way to make the PC work, I would say that your idea of redoing the chip welds, it could be possible that there is a PIN (or some?) That could have non-optimal contacts, before trying to renew the welds, I would try to hold the chip down and see if it can go beyond post code 41.
For multiple response no problem 😉, I do "reply" I select everything and copy, then I go back and do "reply" on the second user, and paste the selection of the first user, finally I add the answers for both users, it works but I can't tell you if it's right to do it that way.
Finally, on what the circuit or the BIOS does, when you use the trick, I don't know, I think there is a point where you jump over the post code 41, or maybe even if you find an error at 41, you can still continue.

AMD 286-16 287-10 4MB
AMD 386SX-33 4MB
AMD 386DX-40 Intel 387 8MB
Cyrix 486DLC-40 IIT387-40 8MB
486DX2-66 +many others
P60 48MB
iDX4-100 32MB
AMD 5X86-133 16MB VLB CL5429 2MB
AMD K62+ 550 SOYO 5EMA+ +many others
AST Pentium Pro 200 MHz L2 256KB