VOGONS


First post, by Mellosnail

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Hello, this is my first post on this forum and i am a newbie to old computer hardware so apologies if i get anything wrong.

I want to build a dos/win98 machine but my motherboard only has one ISA slot, I am wondering if i can use dos drivers for a PCI card (I currently have an audigy 2 z) and an ISA card to get better compatibility with dos games that I couldn't get with just one ISA card. And if that is possible what ISA card should i get for maximum decent-sound coverage in games if i use the audigy 2.

Many thanks.

Reply 1 of 12, by NeoG_

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Now that the PicoGUS has hardware SB Pro, SB16 and OPL3 without a TSR, I would use that in the single ISA slot for all of the DOS gaming needs and keep the Audigy2 for Win98 duties. Your last gap would be MIDI coverage in DOS as the PicoGUS has no onboard wavetable, an MT32-Pi derivative is the best wavetable companion IMO for good coverage. Or you could go the route of external MIDI boxes if that floats your boat.

98/DOS Rig: BabyAT AladdinV, K6-2+/550, V3 2000, 128MB PC100, 20GB HDD, 128GB SD2IDE, SB Live!, SB16-SCSI, PicoGUS, WP32 McCake, iNFRA CD, ZIP100
XP Rig: Lian Li PC-10 ATX, Gigabyte X38-DQ6, Core2Duo E6850, ATi HD5870, 2GB DDR2, 2TB HDD, X-Fi XtremeGamer

Reply 2 of 12, by Mellosnail

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Wow I have not heard of the PicoGUS before, it looks great! I just have one question, how would I connect my setup to my speakers? It doesn't have a line-in so would i need to switch cables when i go between windows and dos? or can i connect to to the audigy 2 line-in and that will work when playing dos games?

Reply 3 of 12, by NeoG_

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It's less than optimal with an Audigy 2 unfortunately- If you had a Live or Audigy 1 there's a tool (EK1M/EK2M) to enable the line input in DOS so you can daisy chain the cards. There's no such tool for the Audigy 2, the line in only enables when you use the emualated DOS drivers which defeats the purpose of having the PicoGUS. The PicoGUS does have a line input via the wavetable header but a) there's no off the shelf adapters, you'd have to DIY one and 2) if you are using that for daisy chaining the cards then you wouldn't be able to fit a wavetable card.

So the off the shelf option with those 2 cards would be a small external switch box or mixer for the 2 cards

98/DOS Rig: BabyAT AladdinV, K6-2+/550, V3 2000, 128MB PC100, 20GB HDD, 128GB SD2IDE, SB Live!, SB16-SCSI, PicoGUS, WP32 McCake, iNFRA CD, ZIP100
XP Rig: Lian Li PC-10 ATX, Gigabyte X38-DQ6, Core2Duo E6850, ATi HD5870, 2GB DDR2, 2TB HDD, X-Fi XtremeGamer

Reply 4 of 12, by Mellosnail

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Could I not still use DOS drivers to enable the line in and use the picoGUS? Or does that not work.

Reply 5 of 12, by NeoG_

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You could probably massage it into working, you will need an additional spare IRQ and 2 DMAs for the Audigy2 emulation to start. Both cards will also respond on port 388 for FM, you can disable FM on the PicoGUS but not on the Audigy2 DOS drivers. From my experience the FM doesn't clash and both cards play at the same time if they are both enabled.

If the connection has to be done via daisy chain there are other options for DOS cards as well. ESS 1868/1869, YMF719 are popular choices that don't break the bank. The audio quality is reduced a bit by running the Audigy 2 thorugh the ISA card but since the line-in can be activated in DOS and Windows it will work in both scenarios.

98/DOS Rig: BabyAT AladdinV, K6-2+/550, V3 2000, 128MB PC100, 20GB HDD, 128GB SD2IDE, SB Live!, SB16-SCSI, PicoGUS, WP32 McCake, iNFRA CD, ZIP100
XP Rig: Lian Li PC-10 ATX, Gigabyte X38-DQ6, Core2Duo E6850, ATi HD5870, 2GB DDR2, 2TB HDD, X-Fi XtremeGamer

Reply 6 of 12, by crvs

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  • Yes, you can use Audigy2ZS in real DOS and simultaneously with ISA sound cards - there's a lot of info and recommendations in this thread
  • Audigy2 in DOS comes with a set of limitations: quite finicky driver and it requires EMM386, SB16 compatibility is ok but not ideal, OPL is emulated (sounds similar to CQM but not entirely the same), very few *.ECW GM banks, external MPU401 & LineIn don't function, poor compatibility with DPMI extenders
  • You can daisy chain sound cards the opposite way and it works: Audigy LineOut -> ISA LineIn
  • What kind of ISA card to choose - it depends on the time period and specific list of games you're targeting (there won't be 100% coverage) + your budget, soundcard 'neardiness', and also how much are you interested in 'authenticity' and tolerant to emulation (like aforementioned PicoGUS) => name your objectives if you want better advice here

Reply 7 of 12, by Mellosnail

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I want to play games from 90s era with decent sound, mostly fps games like doom, hexen and duke nukem. I want to have a variety of choices for sound over optimized sound quality, can spend a bit on a sound card up to £100, Id prefer authentic hardware but if the picoGUS is the best choice ill go for it.

I guess im mostly asking what would best compliment an audigy 2 zs if i was to use it for dos games as well, and use the isa sound card for real opl3 and better compatibility with some games.

Reply 8 of 12, by crvs

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Mellosnail wrote on Yesterday, 15:16:

I want to play games from 90s era with decent sound, mostly fps games like doom, hexen and duke nukem. I want to have a variety of choices for sound over optimized sound quality, can spend a bit on a sound card up to £100, Id prefer authentic hardware but if the picoGUS is the best choice ill go for it.

I guess im mostly asking what would best compliment an audigy 2 zs if i was to use it for dos games as well, and use the isa sound card for real opl3 and better compatibility with some games.

Then you probably won't need anything besides SB Pro2, SB16 and GM compatibility.

The games you mentioned shouldn't have any issues running directly from Windows 98, you do not need to boot in true DOS. Actually, I'd recommend you exactly this approach if you're planning to keep using Audigy2 - its drivers for Windows 9x are better and have more features, hence you can get both decent SB16 emulation and General MIDI (with possibility to use .SF2 MIDI banks - there're tons of them, for any taste); for the details, check the thread I've given above.

For real DOS, SB Pro2 and OPL3 support, I'd say that better and least troublesome are probably later clones, not Creative products. I'd pay attention to the ISA cards based on Yamaha Ymf719 (it's overall very good choice, with genuine OPL3 and as a bonus - support of WSS) and ESS ES1868 (OPL implementation is non-genuine but sounds very close, some argue even better than real thing, and its ESFM extensions are supported by many games of late 90th). They're both easy to set up, highly compatible and darn cheap, and even OEM / noname cards often have pretty good production quality. Also, with both options you're getting a bug-free uart MPU401, which means no hanging MIDI notes in Doom and Hexen. If you're not planning to get a MIDI daughterboard (they're nowadays pricey), look for such cards with soldered GM synth - they're not that rare, and usually also not expensive.

Reply 9 of 12, by crvs

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UPD: I forgot to mention that MIDI tracks in the games you listed have been composed using Roland SC-55, so if you don't object agains the external synth and want the closest authentic sound - you can try to get one, it can work with MIDI ports of both Audigy2 (windows only) and ISA card (both windows and dos). They're already not cheap but some people are lucky.

Reply 10 of 12, by Mellosnail

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That makes it sound really simple, I did want to keep using the audigy 2 because its sounded great so far and for the custom midi banks so ill go with the setup you recommended.

I didn't mention any windows games because they are mostly covered by the audigy 2, but if i wanted to play a windows game using the OPL3 synth from the ISA card instead of the emulated one on the audigy 2 is that possible?

I was thinking of buying an external synth at some point if I can find one for a decent price but the audigy 2 sounded close enough for me.

Reply 11 of 12, by crvs

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Mellosnail wrote on Yesterday, 18:22:

I didn't mention any windows games because they are mostly covered by the audigy 2, but if i wanted to play a windows game using the OPL3 synth from the ISA card instead of the emulated one on the audigy 2 is that possible?

Yes. But you may need to patch Audigy2 SB16 emulation driver for DOS apps (or disable it alltogether). As I remember, it's always grabbing port 388, and this can't be edited in the parameters. It results in a conflict with ISA card.

Reply 12 of 12, by Mellosnail

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Okay ill bookmark that for when i get everything together. Thanks so much for the help.