VOGONS


First post, by UCyborg

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Long story short, I'm done with Pale Moon. Not only prompted by instabilities that have been going on for months now, but also censorship in their community, which I consider to be the worse offense. They really aren't any better than the others. Which makes the point of supporting their project from the ethical standpoint null and void. I've been using Pale Moon for years, even being patient with its rather laggy and 100% CPU core spike nature for the sake of some of the other conveniences and it will take some adjustment to get used to another browser, but I'll deal with it.

I'm leaning more towards something Firefox-based as I find Chromium in general chronically inflexible. While I haven't checked Vivaldi in few years now and it was impressive in its own right, AFAIK it still inherits many shortcomings, things like inability to copy profile between machines and more restrictive extension system, eg. uBO is more functional on Firefox, you can move extension buttons around, there's still some tricks you can do with userchrome scripts etc. I guess my needs are rather specific so might be why Vivaldi doesn't move me as much.

I already keep both Chromium and Firefox-based browser as a backup, that is FireDragon on Mozilla side and Thorium on Google side. Might just keep them if nothing better is found for my needs, with FireDragon as the main browser. I'd be interested if anyone knows any Chromium fork that diverges from stock in any meaningful way or at the very least lets you copy profile between machines and not lose data. I only know 3 that can do the latter with added cmd-line parameters / flags, they are Ungoogled Chromium, Thorium and Supermium.

I realize I'll never have all the bells and whistles I can have with Pale Moon, so I'll list the most important things I'm looking for first.

First, it should at least launch on my favorite computer, so no SSE 4.1 or AVX requirement enforcement. SSE3 is fine. If it throws illegal instruction on AMD Phenom II for basic operation, then it's useless. I'm fine with Windows 10, so won't ask for it to run on Windows 7 or even XP (yikes!).

ClearType font rendering, which appears to be mission impossible to find in current browsers and major reason that has kept me on Pale Moon for so long. But, as it is, I guess there's no choice other than trying to emulate it via userscript hacks adjusting CSS properties dealing with contrast. I use non-default settings on Windows with slightly bumped contrast. SeaMonkey is the only other one I'm aware of that still has normal font rendering, but sadly, their engine is way too behind to be practical. It should at very least be able to access all my sites to pay bills and the app at work, so the engine should support dynamic module imports, newer class syntax so things like class a {b;#c} don't throw errors etc., otherwise, this one would be easy to switch to.

Sane session save on quit / restore on launch with NOT loading everything, just the selected tab. Chromium is just pathetic at this, extensions can only rely on unreliable hacks to stop tabs from loading and that doesn't work at random. I recently tried one of the tab session management extensions rather than relying on native session restore + Lazy Tabs and it was worse, tabs didn't have navigation history preserved. Seriously?

Something more than barebones tab management. If nothing else, context menu with an option to unload tabs on demand and some visual indicator which tabs are active or not. Seems Firefox is much better in this regard with Tab Mix Plus.
Also, tabs below URL bar. There was one good project that tackled many visual aspects, CustomCSSforFx, but it's a lot of work to maintain and the author stepped down. FireDragon browser has some of these out of box, so as long as it is maintained, things will be better out-of-box without manual messing with CSS.

Integration with KeePass that preferably also supports entering TOTP codes. This one is easy at least, KeePassXC-Browser works OK on both Chromium and Firefox. Meant for KeePassXC specifically rather than the original KeePass, but KeePassNatMsg plugin on KeePass side fills the gap.

Preserving modification timestamp of downloaded files. No browser really does this AFAIK, but until recent releases, it was easy with Firefox with "legacy" DownThemAll! extension. But this one probably needs a rewrite to work on current Firefox... It seems there's an extension for both Firefox and Chromium to send downloads to JDownloader2, but this one is an overkill, especially since it needs not so light process constantly running in the background for seamless experience. Download with Wget for Firefox might be an acceptable compromise.

These would be the most important. Now, some nice to haves.

Colorful tabs - there isn't anything like the old ColorfulTabs extension, is it? You can have tabs randomly colored, colored by domain, manual...

Navigation sounds to have audible cue when using backward / forward functions. There's a nice legacy extension for it, reads settings from Windows registry and plays the sound you've set there. I tried one or two "modern" extensions, they had sound hardcoded (suppose could rip it open and replace it, but it's ugly) and the one on Firefox launched WebAudio context running in the background, which tends to force high resolution timers, which tipped me off a bit.

NPAPI - I don't buy the whole insecure deprecated BS. I'll take proper PDF reader in a browser tab over PDF.js any day. And you get to run Flash too, forget the fake, slow and incomplete Ruffle. Or Java. There's probably more, but yeah, the powers that be decided to kill it. Apparently NPAPI is alive in China and 360 Extreme Explorer supports it. But it's another Chromium...

Flag display indicating the country where the server is from. Seems only Firefox has saner extension for it that doesn't query online service for it all the time.

Well, that's all that comes to mind right now. Any thoughts?

Arthur Schopenhauer wrote:

A man can be himself only so long as he is alone; and if he does not love solitude, he will not love freedom; for it is only when he is alone that he is really free.

Reply 1 of 8, by The Serpent Rider

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LibreWolf, just a privacy focused Firefox without additional bloat. If you want something similar to Vivaldi but on Firefox engine - Floorp.

uBO is more functional on Firefox

uBO is just dead on Chromium, except Brave. They maintain compatibility for 3 major extentions: uBO, NoScript and Adblock.

AFAIK it still inherits many shortcomings, things like inability to copy profile between machines

Vivaldi can be completely portable, it's an option in the installer.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 2 of 8, by ElectroSoldier

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They're all pretty much the same, it just depends on what bugs you are willing to live with.

You would be better off asking google for a list of the top 10 common web browsers and try and use each one until you find one that works for you rather than ask what they like.
All you will get is a list of little known browsers that have little in the way of support of any kind from people who want to show there hip.

Reply 3 of 8, by Robbbert

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Windows 10? I'm using currentFirefox, probably because I'm used to it. Just turn off the AI stuff.

Latest Edge and Chrome are also installed on this 15-year-old machine (HP 6000), but I barely use them.

Reply 4 of 8, by UCyborg

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2026-06-06, 06:06:

LibreWolf, just a privacy focused Firefox without additional bloat. If you want something similar to Vivaldi but on Firefox engine - Floorp.

I know about Floorp, but unless something changed recently, it needs SSE 4.1 at least. I came across FireDragon, which is based on Floorp and launches on my Phenom II. For some reason, turning off smooth scrolling doesn't do anything, haven't checked if this is inherited from Firefox... By default, default config is a bit too much LibreWolfied for my liking out-of-box, but fortunately, can be tweaked. It even forces intl.accept_languages on to en-US... I mean, c'mon...

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2026-06-06, 06:06:

Vivaldi can be completely portable, it's an option in the installer.

Are you referring to this? They explicitly mention encryption which causes extensions to not survive migration, cookies too last time I checked.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2026-06-06, 06:25:

They're all pretty much the same, it just depends on what bugs you are willing to live with.

That's my general impression as well. Honestly, I'm not even sure anything will come out of this. Even though I'm really tired from sluggishness of Pale Moon (and additional issues that cropped up with time), any time I tried to switch, I figured it was better for me to just suffer with Pale Moon.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2026-06-06, 06:25:

You would be better off asking google for a list of the top 10 common web browsers and try and use each one until you find one that works for you rather than ask what they like.

Yeah, it seems hardly anyone relates to what I want in a browser. And I didn't even mention the theme that inherits operating system's underlying theme! I have Aero like theme on my Win10 + DWMBlurGlass and GlassMyFox extension in Pale Moon. So menus, dialogs and controls in the browser get appearance as if I was still on Windows Vista / 7. Plus the transparency that extends from title bar to the toolbars and status bar.

Modern browsers are so lame and soulless.

Arthur Schopenhauer wrote:

A man can be himself only so long as he is alone; and if he does not love solitude, he will not love freedom; for it is only when he is alone that he is really free.

Reply 5 of 8, by DaveDDS

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I still use Chrome on this Win7 machine - it does say it will not get updates - but so far it's continued to work fine!

- Dave ; https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ; "Daves Old Computers" ; SW dev addict best known:
ImageDisk: rd/wr ANY floppy PChardware can ; Micro-C: compiler for DOS+ManySmallCPU ; DDLINK: simple/small FileTrans(w/o netSW)via Lan/Lpt/Serial

Reply 6 of 8, by UCyborg

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Chromium tends to take longer before compatibility issues arise. Might have something to do with them pushing draft standards into use at early stage.

People getting upset quickly on the internet seems to be common. When I wrote this post here, I thought my recent post on PM forum was deleted, but it was merely moved. Still, easy to trip someone over there, saw from my own posting a while back and from other people too.

Arthur Schopenhauer wrote:

A man can be himself only so long as he is alone; and if he does not love solitude, he will not love freedom; for it is only when he is alone that he is really free.

Reply 7 of 8, by UCyborg

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In any case, there doesn't seem to be any choice if you don't want to have to bother with switching browsers as much other than use one of the big ones.

I figured FireDragon's firedragon.cfg is responsible for enforced smooth scrolling. I commented out a whole bunch of other things there, just prefer closer to stock settings.

Why is preserving timestamp of downloaded files such a challenge? Download with Wget is buggy, doesn't seem to initialize properly, have to disable / re-enable integration with its button before it starts working. And even then, the way it works is ugly, it interrupts built-in download manager in a way that leaves .part file behind. And when I tried to download something when logged into NextCloud instance, wget complained that authentication failed. An odd case where probably timestamp preservation wouldn't work, at least the one I was in seems to not send the real one, but, it still breaks seamless integration.

I've been using FireDragon more at home, but, I don't know. There just aren't any normal web browsers left.

Arthur Schopenhauer wrote:

A man can be himself only so long as he is alone; and if he does not love solitude, he will not love freedom; for it is only when he is alone that he is really free.

Reply 8 of 8, by DaveDDS

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My "solution" to the whole auto-update, change how things you're used to work every few weeks - I got a Chromebook (and yes,I know it constantly updates - but it in one system I don't use for anything else.

I haven't yet had to switch to it "always" - but I know it's coming... and it can talk to my desktop for file access, and can read/write a USB stick - so I will still be able to UL/DL stuff as I need.

They are super cheap too!

- Dave ; https://dunfield.themindfactory.com ; "Daves Old Computers" ; SW dev addict best known:
ImageDisk: rd/wr ANY floppy PChardware can ; Micro-C: compiler for DOS+ManySmallCPU ; DDLINK: simple/small FileTrans(w/o netSW)via Lan/Lpt/Serial