douglar wrote on 2026-09-04, 18:44:

Most companies have more diversity consultants that developers? Good grief. This thread should get renamed to “Hot takes that dont stand up to any sort of scrutiny”

Nationally there are low thousands of diversity consultants out of 160 million workers ,(less than a thousandth of a percent?)
I think we are safe.

What I find funny is the people who are supposedly against whatever it is they think an employee of that type does
seem to inject diversity into every topic accomplishing the opposite of their intent.

The anti cancel culture folks seem to support cancel culture more avidly than anyone else.

65C02 wrote on 2026-09-05, 00:14:

Ffs, not again. Vogons doesn’t need this. There was recently a thread that mentioned how some long time posters don’t visit vogons anymore. I suspect one reason is that posts like this regularly appear in milliways now.

Small angry men ruin things, that's just what they do.

I think the bigger problem is that multithreaded game engines are really hard.

The painting can and has been made parallel.

The main thread is more difficult to break out into discrete chunks, and keep operating in sync.

Sure, you can break out sound, networking, and other elements, but their requirements are relatively trivial. 1 spare core from 15 years ago could do all of that.

The "best" gaming CPU is practically always in every generation the one with the most mhz.

Right now, if it was possible to build a lopsided dual core with 25ghz for one and a sidekick core of say 2ghz, it would most likely win all the gaming benchmarks.

That's the biggest problem. It is hard to break up the main thread and keep it all in lockstep.

The graphics card does all the painting.

Multithreading is not hard. It is basically a system of message queues and locks.

What gets challenging is the scheduling of the threads. The application is not guaranteed when which thread will be given some cpu, that is why the locking is so important to ensure nothing that shouldn’t be gets front run.

The main game loop needs to do stuff in a specific order to maintain a coherent state, and finding meaningful stuff to spin off into separate threads is rather moot.

A thread that does spatial audio and just periodically receive events and updates can work great, as it can continue and does not need to phone back with anything time critical.

Otherwise, AI threads performing an advisory role on enemy behaviour can also do heavy work in parallel and update enemy models when it phones back, which the main thread then executes at the relevant point in the gane loop.

Networking is part of the main loop. State ks transmitted at a certain point and sockets read (packets already caught by kernel) - this really does not take much time at all and the variables it touches is in the main thread anyway.

Cannot really think of anything else that can gain much from threading.

st31276a wrote on 2026-09-05, 05:33:

The graphics card does all the painting. […]
Show full quote

The graphics card does all the painting.

Multithreading is not hard. It is basically a system of message queues and locks.

What gets challenging is the scheduling of the threads. The application is not guaranteed when which thread will be given some cpu, that is why the locking is so important to ensure nothing that shouldn’t be gets front run.

The main game loop needs to do stuff in a specific order to maintain a coherent state, and finding meaningful stuff to spin off into separate threads is rather moot.

A thread that does spatial audio and just periodically receive events and updates can work great, as it can continue and does not need to phone back with anything time critical.

Otherwise, AI threads performing an advisory role on enemy behaviour can also do heavy work in parallel and update enemy models when it phones back, which the main thread then executes at the relevant point in the gane loop.

Networking is part of the main loop. State ks transmitted at a certain point and sockets read (packets already caught by kernel) - this really does not take much time at all and the variables it touches is in the main thread anyway.

Cannot really think of anything else that can gain much from threading.

One of the biggest hurdles for efficient and timely multithreading is windows itself, AMD had to fix it themselves via their chipset drivers and IIRC Intel did the same thing as the standard Windows scheduler is fucking terrible at handling chiplet CPUs with non heterogeneous designs like the Intel 14th/15th gen or Ryzen multi CCD CPUs like the 9950 X3D with one CCD having no X3D cache. (I know 14th gen isn't chiplet .. but its has the same problem with big little design)

douglar wrote on 2026-09-04, 18:44:

Most companies have more diversity consultants that developers? Good grief. This thread should get renamed to “Hot takes that dont stand up to any sort of scrutiny”

Yes, especially when talking about software engineering, RAM usage, lazy devs and such.

It is ridiculous and absurd.

xcomcmdr wrote on 2026-09-05, 07:17:

douglar wrote on 2026-09-04, 18:44:

Most companies have more diversity consultants that developers? Good grief. This thread should get renamed to “Hot takes that dont stand up to any sort of scrutiny”

Yes, especially when talking about software engineering, RAM usage, lazy devs and such.

It is ridiculous and absurd.

Unless we want this thread gutted or binned I feel we should just move on, nothing useful will be gained by dwelling on it.

st31276a wrote on 2026-09-05, 05:33:

The graphics card does all the painting. […]
Show full quote

The graphics card does all the painting.

Multithreading is not hard. It is basically a system of message queues and locks.

What gets challenging is the scheduling of the threads. The application is not guaranteed when which thread will be given some cpu, that is why the locking is so important to ensure nothing that shouldn’t be gets front run.

The main game loop needs to do stuff in a specific order to maintain a coherent state, and finding meaningful stuff to spin off into separate threads is rather moot.

A thread that does spatial audio and just periodically receive events and updates can work great, as it can continue and does not need to phone back with anything time critical.

Otherwise, AI threads performing an advisory role on enemy behaviour can also do heavy work in parallel and update enemy models when it phones back, which the main thread then executes at the relevant point in the gane loop.

Networking is part of the main loop. State ks transmitted at a certain point and sockets read (packets already caught by kernel) - this really does not take much time at all and the variables it touches is in the main thread anyway.

Cannot really think of anything else that can gain much from threading.

"multithreading isn't hard"

*Lists all the things that make it hard.*
*Repeats what I said in different ways.*

🤣?

Trashbytes wrote on 2026-09-04, 16:22:

Edit - Not looking to hurt anyone's feelings with words on the internet. Also not a part of whatever thread occurred recently ...that caused people to get hurt feelings.

But clowns would make better software at this point. I saw what you wrote there originally.
---
I occasionally look at new computers. I noticed one model with Intel Core Ultra 7 265KF, 64 GB of RAM, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 5070 Ti and 2 TB SSD, it costs about 3250 €. Any guesses how much it would cost before the price explosion in recent years?

This is actually still in the relatively lower range, I noticed one model that costs over 11500 €.

myne wrote on 2026-09-05, 07:54:

"multithreading isn't hard" […]
Show full quote

"multithreading isn't hard"

*Lists all the things that make it hard.*
*Repeats what I said in different ways.*

🤣?

😮 ?

Nothing about it is hard.

The problem does not scale.

UCyborg wrote on 2026-09-05, 09:40:

But clowns would make better software at this point. I saw what you wrote there originally. --- I occasionally look at new compu […]
Show full quote

Trashbytes wrote on 2026-09-04, 16:22:

Edit - Not looking to hurt anyone's feelings with words on the internet. Also not a part of whatever thread occurred recently ...that caused people to get hurt feelings.

But clowns would make better software at this point. I saw what you wrote there originally.
---
I occasionally look at new computers. I noticed one model with Intel Core Ultra 7 265KF, 64 GB of RAM, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 5070 Ti and 2 TB SSD, it costs about 3250 €. Any guesses how much it would cost before the price explosion in recent years?

This is actually still in the relatively lower range, I noticed one model that costs over 11500 €.

I find self censoring to be a disgusting trend I now need to follow on the internet as there are far too many thin skinned individuals that get hurt the moment someone even looks at them, using words though is akin to attacking them physically, words are violence now apparently.

I wish I didn't need to but I have no desire to drive people away from Vogons so Ill bite my typing fingers and let them have their space. (Im sure someone will be offended by this, there always is.)

As for that PC ..the Ram, Storage and GPU are the offending parts there, 64Gb of memory here is about 1500 dollars, the SSD is about 550 Dollars and the GPU is 1800 dollars ...3250 Eu is about 5240 dollars here . .so that's not an unreasonable price for PC with current shortages and pricing in mind .. I can tell you that the 5070Ti was 1200 Dollars in December, SSD was 240 and the 64Gb of ram was about 500 dollars and the average pre built with the specs you listed would have been about 2500 - 3000 dollars depending on Motherboard, CPU and Case + extras.

st31276a wrote on 2026-09-05, 09:51:

o.O ? […]
Show full quote

myne wrote on 2026-09-05, 07:54:

"multithreading isn't hard" […]
Show full quote

"multithreading isn't hard"

*Lists all the things that make it hard.*
*Repeats what I said in different ways.*

🤣?

😮 ?

Nothing about it is hard.

The problem does not scale.

Are you just going to keep repeating what I said in a different way?

Clearly there's a language barrier here.

Trashbytes wrote on 2026-09-05, 10:50:

I find self censoring to be a disgusting trend I now need to follow on the internet as there are far too many thin skinned individuals that get hurt the moment someone even looks at them, using words though is akin to attacking them physically, words are violence now apparently.

I wish I didn't need to but I have no desire to drive people away from Vogons so Ill bite my typing fingers and let them have their space. (Im sure someone will be offended by this, there always is.)

The world is upside-down. I seem to remember suggesting something violent in frustration when it comes to software development at some point and that must have spooked at least one member here. I'm one of the calmest individuals on this planet, but when people in serious positions act irresponsibly, that pisses me off.

Oh, have you heard this one, Tom & Jerry's a bad influence on children due to violence.

I agree it's a thin line and cracking jokes when it comes to certain atrocities is in bad taste, but still, what happened to the "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me"? Especially, your remark for instance was on rather light side.

Trashbytes wrote on 2026-09-05, 10:50:

As for that PC ..the Ram, Storage and GPU are the offending parts there, 64Gb of memory here is about 1500 dollars, the SSD is about 550 Dollars and the GPU is 1800 dollars ...3250 Eu is about 5240 dollars here . .so that's not an unreasonable price for PC with current shortages and pricing in mind .. I can tell you that the 5070Ti was 1200 Dollars in December, SSD was 240 and the 64Gb of ram was about 500 dollars and the average pre built with the specs you listed would have been about 2500 - 3000 dollars depending on Motherboard, CPU and Case + extras.

RTX 5070 Ti is apparently what runs demanding heavy games at frame rates around 120 FPS at 1080p resolution these days. I like my old computer, but I also like the idea of treating myself something nice. Not planning to buy a new computer at this time, but perhaps some day. I haven't bought a serious computer in 17 years!

UCyborg wrote on 2026-09-05, 12:35:

The world is upside-down. I seem to remember suggesting something violent in frustration when it comes to software development a […]
Show full quote

Trashbytes wrote on 2026-09-05, 10:50:

I find self censoring to be a disgusting trend I now need to follow on the internet as there are far too many thin skinned individuals that get hurt the moment someone even looks at them, using words though is akin to attacking them physically, words are violence now apparently.

I wish I didn't need to but I have no desire to drive people away from Vogons so Ill bite my typing fingers and let them have their space. (Im sure someone will be offended by this, there always is.)

The world is upside-down. I seem to remember suggesting something violent in frustration when it comes to software development at some point and that must have spooked at least one member here. I'm one of the calmest individuals on this planet, but when people in serious positions act irresponsibly, that pisses me off.

Oh, have you heard this one, Tom & Jerry's a bad influence on children due to violence.

I agree it's a thin line and cracking jokes when it comes to certain atrocities is in bad taste, but still, what happened to the "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me"? Especially, your remark for instance was on rather light side.

Trashbytes wrote on 2026-09-05, 10:50:

As for that PC ..the Ram, Storage and GPU are the offending parts there, 64Gb of memory here is about 1500 dollars, the SSD is about 550 Dollars and the GPU is 1800 dollars ...3250 Eu is about 5240 dollars here . .so that's not an unreasonable price for PC with current shortages and pricing in mind .. I can tell you that the 5070Ti was 1200 Dollars in December, SSD was 240 and the 64Gb of ram was about 500 dollars and the average pre built with the specs you listed would have been about 2500 - 3000 dollars depending on Motherboard, CPU and Case + extras.

RTX 5070 Ti is apparently what runs demanding heavy games at frame rates around 120 FPS at 1080p resolution these days. I like my old computer, but I also like the idea of treating myself something nice. Not planning to buy a new computer at this time, but perhaps some day. I haven't bought a serious computer in 17 years!

Ive been watching the markets here more out of curiosity than wanting to buy anything but I have watched the 5070Ti which is a 1440p GPU go from its 1200 dollar release price here to the 1800 they want for it now at the same time the 5080 has well ..gone nowhere it started at 1800 and is now 2000 dollars ...I have no idea why exactly the 5070Ti has risen by such a large amount. I do look at the 5090 pricing and it was a 4500 dollar GPU at release its now 8000 dollars here for one, nearly a 100% increase in its price.

I can understand the 5090 pricing since its the true AI workhorse but the 5070Ti ...its a mid range GPU and why is the 5080 so stable in its pricing? I don't fully understand exactly how the market works these things out, at these prices there is zero reason to buy a 5070Ti over the 5080 and I'm guessing that's exactly what nVidia wants. They raised the 5060Ti 16Gb to 5070Ti release prices here making it the mid range GPU along with the anemic 5070 and have pushed the 5070Ti out of the market entirely by pricing it the same as the 5080.

And yea the pricing here in Australia is Absurd.

myne wrote on 2026-09-05, 12:04:

Are you just going to keep repeating what I said in a different way?

Clearly there's a language barrier here.

Indeed.

I am saying something different.

You're really not.
Go reread.

One thing I will note is that even before the RAM price "explosion", RAM was already slowing down significantly in the capacity/price metric. In 2014 I 'd splurged around 200eur to get 32GB of DDR3 RAM, while in 2024 I splurged around 200eur to get 64GB of DDR5. Compare this to 2004 where 200eur got me 2GB DDR(1) (in too many modules to install in a single mobo, though), and you already know how much you could get with that in 1994...

I still have the original receipts, dated, all from the same retailer, always buying what I thought "state-of-the-art" Kingston modules (so obviously #number of modules, JEDEC standard, etc. all completely different).
I can actually chart it for the effect:

I know taking conclusions from what amounts to 3 random data points is not indicative of anything, but still it is something that's been nagging me for a decade.

A related observation is that high end laptop (consumer) have been stuck in the 32-64GB range for a decade, well before the current price explosion.

65C02 wrote on 2026-09-05, 00:14:

Law212 wrote on 2026-09-04, 15:32:

cyclone3d wrote on 2026-09-04, 15:29:

The problem with "high end" gaming has a lot to do with the fact that programmers don't care to or don't know how to make efficient, high performance code.

For the opposite, take a look at Warframe, a free to play game (though I have spent some money on it), that actually has great graphics and yet, somehow doesn't require insane specifications to perform very well, even with maxed out graphics settings.

Could be because these days most game companies have a few programmers and actual game devs and the rest of the staff are Diversity consultants?

Ffs, not again. Vogons doesn’t need this. There was recently a thread that mentioned how some long time posters don’t visit vogons anymore. I suspect one reason is that posts like this regularly appear in milliways now.

Its a fact that dev teams are bloated with people with no technical knowledge. If teams were tighter maybe things would be better. I dont know why that upsets someone like you. I dont really care either. people get mad about dumb things all the time

Let's keep things civil folks and try to avoid any unnecessary antagonism.

If we move away from politics.

Yeah I think Ramageddon might be a chance for developers to start controlling the amount of memory they use once again.
I think that will be quite difficult for most because the libraries are now tuned to massive RAM usage.

You can for instance see how much things have changed in the dev community when you look at WinXP.
WinXP had a 32bit limit of 4Gb, and until SP2 it could use more than that up to 64Gb, but due to sloppy development of drivers Microsoft felt compelled to remove PAE usage of more than 4Gb which is why so many retro gamers build "Ultimate XP" systems with more than 4Gb of RAM but only see 3.xGb in System Properties. Because they use a Service Pack that disables its ability to use 4-64Gb RAM.
But the way WinXP used that "extra" RAM is not only misunderstood by most people it was also a problem in development teams at the time and thats what broke a good system.

A system might have 32Gb of RAM but the apps, programs etc can only access a small amount of it.
So in Win2k if an app calls for 2Gb it gets 2Gb and then when you start a new app that requires 2Gb it cant have it and you get swapping. The system has 4Gb but the app only gets access to 2Gb
Now thats not quite right, the numbers are wrong and it doesnt take into account user + kernel usage and limits etc but its good enough to describe how it essentially works, in that once you run out of RAM thats it you can only swap which slows the system down as it uses the HDD as virtual RAM. BUT more importantly it tells how a program cant soak up all the system RAM. It had a limit as to how much it could use regardless of how much was installed in the system in total.
These days that limit basically might as well not be there. if a system has 16Gb and Edge/Chrome wants it then it can have it.
Its like living in a house with rubber walls. They flex to accommodate the fact you want more space, but dont need more space.
Back in Win2k/WinXP there was a per app memory usage limit. The walls of the house were solid and once it reached it it got problematic and as your software slowed down due to excessive ram usage you as a dev were called out for it. Your app was slow, clunky and people stopped using it.

Now Im know there are the more technically guys here who will look at my numbers and say theyre wrong, and they would be right but the idea of what is going on is essentially correct. And it doesnt matter what the numbers really were back then, the fact is its basically how it worked, in that developers had good reasons to control the RAM usage of their programs. Which I think is going to become important and this is why.

Back in the 90s there was the DotCom bubble that everybody is recognising in this current AI craze.
The DoTComs grew, drove up prices and then once supply of hardware caught up with demand those DotComs saw there was no market, they had bills to pay and no real income from their investment and *poof* dead dotcom.
But the hardware they had while being enterprise level was in some way resellable to the retail market. It drove down the retail ram prices as those used items hit the market people had options and they took the cheaper one. So the manufacturers lowered prices to sell product.

But now the shortage of RAM and GPUs...
Once those AI companies burst the tech they are buying is highly specific in most cases. It cant be used in peoples home computers like the dead dotcom kit could be.
So there will be no, or very little glut in second hand kit...
How many of us would want an H100, or a GPU with no output... (geeks sure but geeks dont have the money to buy it all and lower the price of hardware, the gamers dont spend half as much money and have the effect on the market they like to think they do).
So the RAM doesnt flood the used market, storage might, but storage is a moot point for app development.
The RAM prices wont fall after this, because the trigger that makes them fall isnt there.

Its not like modern developers have done anything wrong, they have been working in the space they have to work in just like they did in the days of winxp, but now that space into which they are developing for is more open plan and their work has learnt to expand into it as unused system RAM is wasted system RAM. back in the day it wasnt like that.

But now I think things will have to change as systems with 8 and 16Gb of RAM will become normal and devs will need to limit their usage of a finite resource.