Mondodimotori wrote on Yesterday, 21:15:

Hello there, in an attempt to escape my troubles with late AGP cards, I decided to get out of my comfort zone and get a computer […]
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Hello there, in an attempt to escape my troubles with late AGP cards, I decided to get out of my comfort zone and get a computer that is (slightly) older than anything I ever used growing up. I started my PC adventures on a cheap 462 board and another 370 board, thus a Slot 1 system is nothing I ever had my hands on before.
So... What did I get? For the price of 30 € I got myself a:

• QDI P6I440BX/B1S, with Intel 440BX chipset and BIOS revision 1.1SLR (from November 1998). 4 PCI slots and 3 ISA slots, capacitors mostly fine (maybe a couple of them near the CPU are not entirely flat, something I'll take care in the future)
• Mendocino Celeron 333mhz
• 64 MB of EDO ram
• Trident Blade 3D 9880 turbo AGP

Now, since I alredy have a couple 9x systems ready (a 462 with Athlon XP 2500+ and a 370 with a P3 1000), I was thinking about turning this system into a very early 9x system or direclty a late DOS system to play mostly 3D accelerated DOS games and, maybe, some non speed sensitive 2D games. What do I need to get for this plan to come to fruition?
Currently I had my eyes on the following upgrades:

• The CPU: I feel this Mendocino Celeron is plenty fast for my goals but... If I ever feel the need to slow it down to play speed sensitive DOS games, it doesn't leave me much options. The motherboard actually has some decent settings for the CPU, with a "Jumper emulation" mode that let me chose freely both the FSB and multiplier of the CPU. Except... The CPU happily ignores any settings that changes the default 5X multiplier. If I bump up the FSB, I see the increase in clocks, but 66mhz FSB is the bare minimum, and lowering the multiplier doesn't achieve anything.
  Except from disabling the L2 cache to achieve slower operations, is there any Slot 1 CPU that would respond to changes in the multiplier?
  Because the board can happily set me with a 66mhz FSB and a 2X multiplier, and I was reading that early Pentium 2s from 1997 do come with an unlocked multiplier. Would they be a good option? And which models exactly? Considering that I wouldn't even need a BIOS update to use them, since my BIOS is from late 1998 alredy.
  Or there are better options to slow down the CPU? Or should I just stick with disabling the L2 cache and call it a day, since I don't really plan to play lots of speed sensitive games?
• The GPU: Probably the easiest part: I have an history of love/hate relationship with the Trident Blade 3D, since it was the IGP in my first ever desktop PC that I used all the way up to 2009 (and young me insisted in playing games on it), but from what I read it's mediocre both in 9x 3D acceleration and DOS gaming. Thus I peeled my eyes for two options: A cheap one and a not so cheap one.
  The cheap one is a GeForce 2 MX400, hopefully one with a 128bit bus (apparently not easy to spot, since some cards with 8 memory chips on them are still 64bit only) or, if truly desperate, a TNT2 M64 (alredy got one, but has fuzzy VGA output, and they are plentifull on ebay for dirty cheap).
  The not so cheap one is the obvious: A 3dfx card, either a Voodoo Banshee or a Voodoo 3 2000, which should be plenty fast for 3D DOS acceleration.
  On the side I plan to get a card for 2D games like an S3 Virge/GX2 or S3 Trio 64 on the PCI bus, also plenty cheap online. Maybe I'm even able to install both PCI and AGP at the same time?
• The RAM: I don't feel I need more than 64MB, even if it's EDO. But in the offchance I should feel limited, I alredy have some PC100 and PC133 kits ranging from 64mb, 128mb and 256mb around.
• The sound card: Probably the hardest part since I was never really interested in dedicated sound cards before, just getting an X-Fi PCI for my XP retro rig. But I still managed to make myself a short list by lurking old threads here on the forum.
  I'm currently looking at several ISA options, since I don't really need them for 3D sound acceleration, but only good compatibility and clean output (as clean as one can reasonably get).
  And it gets confusing pretty fast with the options I found, which are:OPTi 82C930A / 82C929A / 82C928 / 82C931; CMI8330A; Compaq ES1868; Terratec Promedia Soundbooster 16 3D; AudioDrive ES1868F; Crystal CX4235; Soundblaster Vibra 16C (CT4180)
  As you can read, there are many options, and all of them I can get for reasonably cheap were I live, and as I said I'm extremely confused by the variety. What do you think is the best compromise of DOS compatibility and good audio output among all of those? Considering I won't go with very old DOS games, mostly 3D accelerated games and some 2D game of the "transition to 3D" period.
• And the OS... I was thinking playing it safe with 98SE buuuut, I alredy have a system that is perfect for 98SE (the Pentium 3 1000 on 370, it has one ISA slot), and I was thinking about something older, so... Does Windows 95 or straight up MSDOS 6.22 make sense?

Well, I guess that's that. What are your opinions on my planned build? Different CPU? Different GPU? Maybe one of those Sound Cards is actually more than decent for my plans or a stand out I should seriously consider?
I'll try to be consistent this time and, while I acquire parts, I will post updates, since I'll probably move one attempt after another with a platform I'm not familiar with at all. On the list of things to get there's also a "new" floppy drive and another IDE CD drive, since I just discovered that my "working" IDE CD drive is actually "spinning but not reading".

Here are some pictures of the system on it's current test bench, were it'll proably sit until I gathered all the needed parts:

SetUp Pictures

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With regards to the fuzzy picture I'd invest in a shielded quality VGA cable like the startech high resolution cable. It cleared up the picture from my quadro 2 pro. My lg monitor has an in built cable and the pictures fine but for my crt monitors that don't have built in cables the picture from this card was fuzzy

If you want 3d accelerated DOS games to work out of the box then it has to be Voodoo 1. Though that will bottleneck you on games beyond 1997. Voodoo 2 can be tweaked to work on most DOS Glide games, and will offer better performance in later games too.

For sound I would go with one of the soundblaster 16s with minimal bugs like CT2230 or CT2290. But everyone has opinions on this. I'd say Win95 would be a good choice.

I agree that, if you want 3D acceleration in DOS, you want a Voodoo. Nothing else was supported as widely. Though, I think they're cool, but I don't like them much, the image is fuzzy and they aren't cheap. If you just want 3D games and don't necessarily want hardware acceleration, your Celeron will be plenty fast for almost everything.

I have had good luck with DOS using ATi Rage and Nvidia TNT cards. I think they are very versatile for the money with a great image. But, you won't get many (any?) accelerated games running on them. I thought I remembered using a Rage for DOS but I switched to an M64 for that exact reason. Glad someone called that out.

A Soundblaster 16 will do good enough in Windows and will have broad DOS compatibility. I use one in a 440BX Win98 machine and I prefer its synth for MIDI over any wavetable option. Sounds great in DOS.

You can swap out your Celeron for an early Pentium 2 if you want but it won't make much difference. If you want a wide range of speeds in one system, you are better off with Socket 7 and a Pentium MMX. I think Slot 1 is fine enough for DOS, but you are going to snag on speed sensitive games, and sometimes ones that don't like your yotabytes of memory.

As for OS, some games don't run right or at all in 98 but do run in 95. I think 3.1 games work more often in 95 but don't quote me on that. It is not a big deal to set up both alongside DOS, try one and live in it for a bit, see how it feels

spunky_h0rn wrote on Today, 05:20:

I agree that, if you want 3D acceleration in DOS, you want a Voodoo. Nothing else was supported as widely. Though, I think they're cool, but I don't like them much, the image is fuzzy and they aren't cheap. If you just want 3D games and don't necessarily want hardware acceleration, your Celeron will be plenty fast for almost everything.

Yeah, I agree with that. The Voodoo is definitely a soft image, and they are expensive. I am still glad that I have one.

If DOS acceleration is a lower priority I think I would get a TNT2 M64. They are cheap, still quite compatible with DOS (not accelerated), and should be a fairly good match with that CPU.

spunky_h0rn wrote on Today, 05:20:

If you want a wide range of speeds in one system, you are better off with Socket 7 and a Pentium MMX. I think Slot 1 is fine enough for DOS, but you are going to snag on speed sensitive games, and sometimes ones that don't like your yotabytes of memory.

You are right, Socket 7 is a more compatible platform for DOS games than slot 1. Later DOS games should be mostly ok though.

Stay away from ATI Rage cards for DOS, I'm not sure why people are saying that. They are well known for DOS game issues. https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/

If you want to focus on DOS, you want a good, fast 2d framebuffer card /w good VESA support. Honestly, a PCI Cirrus Logic or S3 Trio64 + Voodoo 1 might be GOAT for that. Any cheapo nvidia AGP like TNT or Vanta or whatever also good.

For sound I prefer ESS Audio Drives. To my ear ESSFM sounds the best.

gmaverick2k wrote on Yesterday, 21:55:

With regards to the fuzzy picture I'd invest in a shielded quality VGA cable like the startech high resolution cable. It cleared up the picture from my quadro 2 pro. My lg monitor has an in built cable and the pictures fine but for my crt monitors that don't have built in cables the picture from this card was fuzzy

I alredy connect it with my CRT own cable. It's the only card that has a fuzzy picture. Could be some condenser going bad, but is it even worth when M64 are like roaches on the used market? Same thing GF2 MX400s

RetroPCCupboard wrote on Yesterday, 22:24:

If you want 3d accelerated DOS games to work out of the box then it has to be Voodoo 1. Though that will bottleneck you on games beyond 1997. Voodoo 2 can be tweaked to work on most DOS Glide games, and will offer better performance in later games too.

For sound I would go with one of the soundblaster 16s with minimal bugs like CT2230 or CT2290. But everyone has opinions on this. I'd say Win95 would be a good choice.

Oh yeah, I've read about that, DOS 3d acceleration is finicky on anything other than a Voodoo1. I'm not really worried about anything beyon 1997, for those I have two 9x systems (one with P3 1000 and GF4 MX440 and one with XP 2500+ and FX5600), so I could add a Voodoo1 to the "not so cheap" option and pair it with one of those 2D cards I mentioned, since it does need a dedicated 2D card, right? Except, when looking at Voodoo1 prices, they are even higher than Banshee and Voodoo3 cards... Guess I'll just stick with a cheapo nvidia card (is it important to get a 128bit bus?)

About sound... I saw those cards online for sale, but the one with those codes are outside the "can be had for reasonably cheap" range, that's why I listed many other options. I'm open to compromises. What about the other sound cards listed? EDIT: I've added the Aztech AZT2320 in the list
And Win95 yeah, good to know. At that point, how would be 3D acceleration if I ran those 3D games directly from Windows 95 on a nvidia card? Still only software renderer? Or I could use something like a GF2 MX or TNT2 M64 in some games that got ports for Windows?

spunky_h0rn wrote on Today, 05:20:

I agree that, if you want 3D acceleration in DOS, you want a Voodoo. Nothing else was supported as widely. Though, I think they' […]
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I agree that, if you want 3D acceleration in DOS, you want a Voodoo. Nothing else was supported as widely. Though, I think they're cool, but I don't like them much, the image is fuzzy and they aren't cheap. If you just want 3D games and don't necessarily want hardware acceleration, your Celeron will be plenty fast for almost everything.

I have had good luck with DOS using ATi Rage and Nvidia TNT cards. I think they are both very versatile for the money with a great image. But, you won't get many (any?) accelerated games running on them.

A Soundblaster 16 will do good enough in Windows and will have broad DOS compatibility. I use one in a 440BX Win98 machine and I prefer its synth for MIDI over any wavetable option. Sounds great in DOS.

You can swap out your Celeron for an early Pentium 2 if you want but it won't make much difference. If you want a wide range of speeds in one system, you are better off with Socket 7 and a Pentium MMX. I think Slot 1 is fine enough for DOS, but you are going to snag on speed sensitive games, and sometimes ones that don't like your yotabytes of memory.

As for OS, some games don't run right or at all in 98 but do run in 95. I think 3.1 games work more often in 95 but don't quote me on that. It is not a big deal to set up both alongside DOS, try one and live in it for a bit, see how it feels

Yeah, I think a Celeron shouldn't be that bad for software rendering of pre Quake games (I alredy run QuakeGL on one of my 9x systems no issues), what bothered me was that, in the offchance I wanted to play speed sensitive games, that CPU has a locked multiplier. Thus I was looking around at early Pentium 2s that should come with unlocked multiplier, letting me use the 66x2 mode that my mobo support.

About the soundblaster 16, I've seen many models with different codes floating around, some of them are on the limit of my "cheap enough" range, but I also read in other threads that some of thems may come with audio bugs. The reason I ended up not listing many of them (maybe one) in my "short" list of ISA sound cards. What about the other sound cards listed? EDIT: I've added the Aztech AZT2320 in the list

I looked around at Socket 7 system, even not "super" variants wich can be had for cheaper, but lots of those boards areoutside the era of ATX, meaning very outside my expertise and with potential PSU shenanigans involved (had plenty of those alredy for socket 462), thus I may take a look at them but in the future.

And the OS yeah, I alredy have plenty fast systems with 98 and Me installed, I don't need a slower 98 system. I'll test out installing both 95 and DOS 6.22 and see how it goes.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on Today, 06:44:

Yeah, I agree with that. The Voodoo is definitely a soft image, and they are expensive. I am still glad that I have one.

If DOS acceleration is a lower priority I think I would get a TNT2 M64. They are cheap, still quite compatible with DOS (not accelerated), and should be a fairly good match with that CPU.

You are right, Socket 7 is a more compatible platform for DOS games than slot 1. Later DOS games should be mostly ok though.

That's why I was looking at Voodoo banshee or Voodoo 3 2000, but if they are finicky in pure DOS accelerated games, I may just get a TNT2 (what about the GF2 MX400?) or stick with a 2D card and play 3D games in software.

kingcake wrote on Today, 06:45:

Stay away from ATI Rage cards for DOS, I'm not sure why people are saying that. They are well known for DOS game issues. https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/

If you want to focus on DOS, you want a good, fast 2d framebuffer card /w good VESA support. Honestly, a PCI Cirrus Logic or S3 Trio64 + Voodoo 1 might be GOAT for that. Any cheapo nvidia AGP like TNT or Vanta or whatever also good.

For sound I prefer ESS Audio Drives. To my ear ESSFM sounds the best.

Yup, that's what I've read, no ATI for anything that isn't XP gaming. I referred to that spreadsheet exactly when looking at GPU options, and I concluded to get an nVidia on the AGP slot (unless I go crazy and get a Voodoo) and a S3 either Trio64 or Virge/GX2, wich are pretty cheap online.
About sound, I've read good things about ESS cards, that's why I'm pretty sure I've listed a couple of them in my "short" list.
What about the other sound cards listed? EDIT: I've added the Aztech AZT2320 in the list

Mondodimotori wrote on Today, 09:09:

Yeah, I think a Celeron shouldn't be that bad for software rendering of pre Quake games (I alredy run QuakeGL on one of my 9x systems no issues), what bothered me was that, in the offchance I wanted to play speed sensitive games, that CPU has a locked multiplier. Thus I was looking around at early Pentium 2s that should come with unlocked multiplier, letting me use the 66x2 mode that my mobo support.

Just be aware, that as far as I know, the Pentium II with unlocked multiplier (pre week-3831 or something of 1998) also disables L2 cache when configured to 2x multiplier. I think there's another multiplier, that can be selected, which interprets as 2x but with L2 enabled.

List of UNLOCKED Pentium II CPUs - A Quick Glance

Pentium 2 @ 133 mhz project ,done

Edit: Corrected week number as per added link.
Edit2: added link to thread on 2x multiplier with L2 enabled - seems to be 5 or 5.5 that should be set.

H3nrik V! wrote on Today, 09:16:

Just be aware, that as far as I know, the Pentium II with unlocked multiplier (pre week-3831 or something of 1998) also disables […]
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Mondodimotori wrote on Today, 09:09:

Yeah, I think a Celeron shouldn't be that bad for software rendering of pre Quake games (I alredy run QuakeGL on one of my 9x systems no issues), what bothered me was that, in the offchance I wanted to play speed sensitive games, that CPU has a locked multiplier. Thus I was looking around at early Pentium 2s that should come with unlocked multiplier, letting me use the 66x2 mode that my mobo support.

Just be aware, that as far as I know, the Pentium II with unlocked multiplier (pre week-3831 or something of 1998) also disables L2 cache when configured to 2x multiplier. I think there's another multiplier, that can be selected, which interprets as 2x but with L2 enabled.

List of UNLOCKED Pentium II CPUs - A Quick Glance

Edit: Corrected week number as per added link.

And I guess that having the L2 cache disabled with such a low multiplier would go beyond the scope of "slowing down the CPU", making it even slower than a Pentium MMX. Correct?
Now, this board supports several multipliers, 2X is the lowest one, but IIRC it also has a 2.5X option there. And also the option to manually enable/disable the L2 cache.

But, of course, this is in the offchance I need to slow down the CPU to play those games. Which is unlikely I do but not impossible. I think I better focus first on solving my confusion about ISA sound cards.

Mondodimotori wrote on Today, 09:21:

And I guess that having the L2 cache disabled with such a low multiplier would go beyond the scope of "slowing down the CPU", ma […]
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H3nrik V! wrote on Today, 09:16:

Just be aware, that as far as I know, the Pentium II with unlocked multiplier (pre week-3831 or something of 1998) also disables […]
Show full quote

Mondodimotori wrote on Today, 09:09:

Yeah, I think a Celeron shouldn't be that bad for software rendering of pre Quake games (I alredy run QuakeGL on one of my 9x systems no issues), what bothered me was that, in the offchance I wanted to play speed sensitive games, that CPU has a locked multiplier. Thus I was looking around at early Pentium 2s that should come with unlocked multiplier, letting me use the 66x2 mode that my mobo support.

Just be aware, that as far as I know, the Pentium II with unlocked multiplier (pre week-3831 or something of 1998) also disables L2 cache when configured to 2x multiplier. I think there's another multiplier, that can be selected, which interprets as 2x but with L2 enabled.

List of UNLOCKED Pentium II CPUs - A Quick Glance

Edit: Corrected week number as per added link.

And I guess that having the L2 cache disabled with such a low multiplier would go beyond the scope of "slowing down the CPU", making it even slower than a Pentium MMX. Correct?
Now, this board supports several multipliers, 2X is the lowest one, but IIRC it also has a 2.5X option there. And also the option to manually enable/disable the L2 cache.

But, of course, this is in the offchance I need to slow down the CPU to play those games. Which is unlikely I do but not impossible. I think I better focus first on solving my confusion about ISA sound cards.

I just did a second edit of my post to include some info on how to get L2 working.

But I guess you're right, at 133 MHz and no L2 it would be a good bit slower than an MMX. I think even with L2 enabled, the MMX will probably still be faster. But speed sensitive is usually chasing waaay lower speeds than MMX territory.

By the way, are you sure your RAM is EDO? A Google image search suggests they are indeed SDRAM chips? If it really is EDO, it would be so cool to do some benchmarks with the EDO and compare to the same amount of SDRAM, all other parameters unchanged.

H3nrik V! wrote on Today, 09:27:

I just did a second edit of my post to include some info on how to get L2 working.

But I guess you're right, at 133 MHz and no L2 it would be a good bit slower than an MMX. I think even with L2 enabled, the MMX will probably still be faster. But speed sensitive is usually chasing waaay lower speeds than MMX territory.

By the way, are you sure your RAM is EDO? A Google image search suggests they are indeed SDRAM chips? If it really is EDO, it would be so cool to do some benchmarks with the EDO and compare to the same amount of SDRAM, all other parameters unchanged.

You are right! It's not EDO, it's SDRAM! I re-checked pictures of EDO and SDRAM pinouts, and I have SDRAM pinouts. Brainfart yesterday evening when I checked the pinout before posting.
But this board does support both EDO and SDRAM...

About speeds way lowers than MMX territory... Then I could just disable L2 cache and call it a day if I ever need to play speed sensitive games.

ESS Audiodrive is a good card too, and also you can get generic Yamaha OPL3 ISA cards. My preference for SB16 is mostly based on nostalgia, and usually they just work.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on Today, 09:59:

ESS Audiodrive is a good card too, and also you can get generic Yamaha OPL3 ISA cards. My preference for SB16 is mostly based on nostalgia, and usually they just work.

Another vote for either ESS or SB16. There are some relatively cheap ESS cards on the internet.
What about the other cards listed? Any experience with them?

ESS Audiodrive, Yamaha and SB16 are all that I have used in the form of ISA cards.

There are also PCI cards like Aureal Vortex 2, Soundblaster Live, ESS Solo 1, C-Media CMI8738 that can be used in DOS. Though compatability is not as good, and they don't sound right to my ears.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on Today, 10:18:

ESS Audiodrive, Yamaha and SB16 are all that I have used in the form of ISA cards.

There are also PCI cards like Aureal Vortex 2, Soundblaster Live, ESS Solo 1, C-Media CMI8738 that can be used in DOS. Though compatability is not as good, and they don't sound right to my ears.

Yeah, I wanted to avoid PCI sound cards for this build, since I don't really need any of the features of newer sound cards. I reserve those for my 9x builds.
I've also added the Aztech AZT2320 in the list, it should come with an original OPL3 chip.
SB16 I'm wary about them since I've read of a "clicking" bug that affect some of them. And, of course, cards that aren't affected are much more expensive and outside my "reasonably cheap" range. I'm not really looking for the "best" ISA card, but the good "bang for the buck" compromise.

The thing about Sound Blaster is - it became the market standard - all others strived to be "Sound Blaster compatible". At least in the mid-late ninetees to my recollection.

I have a stack of AWE64 Value, that I use for most builds - don't know if they're too new to have DOS issues, though.

They're usually available around €30

H3nrik V! wrote on Today, 13:10:

The thing about Sound Blaster is - it became the market standard - all others strived to be "Sound Blaster compatible". At least in the mid-late ninetees to my recollection.

I have a stack of AWE64 Value, that I use for most builds - don't know if they're too new to have DOS issues, though.

They're usually available around €30

I'm checking AWE64 Value on ebay... The cheapest ones are around 65€ plus shipping.
The shame is that, if I look on local used storefronts, people there usually just put the price they read on ebay, and are not very open to negotiating it, leaving the item up for sale for months.
Anyway, I'll still add it to the list, it's still ISA, so it should offer decent compatibility on DOS, I just read I should be wary of OEM cut down versions (and even Creative themselves did some cut down versions) that are "useless for FM playback". And they don't come with a true OPL3 chip, but maybe that's not a big problem if they emulate it correctly enough.

Mondodimotori wrote on Today, 09:09:

Yup, that's what I've read, no ATI for anything that isn't XP gaming. I referred to that spreadsheet exactly when looking at GPU options, and I concluded to get an nVidia on the AGP slot (unless I go crazy and get a Voodoo) and a S3 either Trio64 or Virge/GX2, wich are pretty cheap online.
About sound, I've read good things about ESS cards, that's why I'm pretty sure I've listed a couple of them in my "short" list.
What about the other sound cards listed? EDIT: I've added the Aztech AZT2320 in the list

Some Aztech cards are pretty good. Many have real Yamaha OPL chips. Pretty comprehensive info on them over at DosDays: https://www.dosdays.co.uk/topics/Manufacturers/aztech.php

Mondodimotori wrote on Today, 14:56:

I'm checking AWE64 Value on ebay... The cheapest ones are around 65€ plus shipping. The shame is that, if I look on local used s […]
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H3nrik V! wrote on Today, 13:10:

The thing about Sound Blaster is - it became the market standard - all others strived to be "Sound Blaster compatible". At least in the mid-late ninetees to my recollection.

I have a stack of AWE64 Value, that I use for most builds - don't know if they're too new to have DOS issues, though.

They're usually available around €30

I'm checking AWE64 Value on ebay... The cheapest ones are around 65€ plus shipping.
The shame is that, if I look on local used storefronts, people there usually just put the price they read on ebay, and are not very open to negotiating it, leaving the item up for sale for months.
Anyway, I'll still add it to the list, it's still ISA, so it should offer decent compatibility on DOS, I just read I should be wary of OEM cut down versions (and even Creative themselves did some cut down versions) that are "useless for FM playback". And they don't come with a true OPL3 chip, but maybe that's not a big problem if they emulate it correctly enough.

An ESS, Yamaha or older SB card would be much better for DOS. Again, people seem a little misguided here. AWE64s no longer have true OPL and emulate it. It sounds terrible. Look for demos on youtube vs ESSFM.