VOGONS


Reply 20 of 41, by SpeedySPCFan

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obobskivich wrote:
NV1x also includes GF4-MX, which is generally what I'd suggest because it adds LMA and MSAA. I know that some GF2s have the "wav […]
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NV1x also includes GF4-MX, which is generally what I'd suggest because it adds LMA and MSAA. I know that some GF2s have the "wavy output" from VGA at high resolution (so obviously on the Internet this means all GF2 products have massive, world-shattering problems all the time in every situation) - from reviews it tends to be centered on GF2Ultra and GTS but I've heard of MX boards exhibiting it too; I know the MXs I've had don't exhibit it (at least at 1280x1024 and under). The issue is not actually in the GPU - it's the analog output filter quality (or lack thereof). And there should be no reason to go with an Ultra or something like that for this machine - a 2 MX 200 or 4 MX 440 would be an easy route to S-Video with good performance though, and a 4 MX has a better chance at having better output filtering (and DVI, if your monitor can take digital).

Here's a thread that addresses GF2/3 VGA output:
Wavy horizontal lines with Geforce2 Ultra (and if you're not going to read the text, note that the author states the image is an exaggerated mock-up, not a screen-grab).

And an article from Anand:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/869/5

Well, that's interesting. Thanks! I most likely won't be taking a GeForce 2/3 with the rig, but that's still interesting.

Musician & music gear/game reviewer.

MIDI hardware: JD-990, SC-55, SC-880, SD-90, VL70-m, Motif ES, Trinity, TS-10, Proteus 2000, XK-6, E6400U

Reply 21 of 41, by obobskivich

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SpeedySPCFan wrote:

Well, that's interesting. Thanks! I most likely won't be taking a GeForce 2/3 with the rig, but that's still interesting.

Do note that the naming scheme is a little confusing:

- GeForce 4 MX is similar to GeForce 2 (NV1x based).
- GeForce 3 is NV20, and similar to the faster/newer GeForce 4 Ti (NV25 and NV28); it adds support for pixel shaders (which the 4 MX lacks).

In general I would suggest the 4 MX for a lower-power build like this; even though it wasn't a rockstar when it was introduced alongside the 4 Ti, compared to cards from the late 1990s its very fast (and unlike a lot of older cards, finding a 4 MX with TV-out or DVI isn't much of a stretch). Of course, unlike the 3dfx cards, it won't do Glide - so that's a consideration since you want/need Glide support. It's unfortunate that the Voodoo4/5 cards have gone up so much in price (they're much more competitive with GeForce performance-wise).

Price-wise an MX 440 shouldn't be more than around $10-$15. On the Voodoo3 front, it looks like a TV-out equipped model isn't terribly expensive either, however: http://www.ebay.com/itm/151451203647 (the 3500TV also does TV-out via the breakout box, but they cost a bit more).

Another thing you may consider is a VGA to TV converter, which would then open you up to more options on the graphics card.

Reply 22 of 41, by SpeedySPCFan

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obobskivich wrote:

Another thing you may consider is a VGA to TV converter, which would then open you up to more options on the graphics card.

I've been considering one, I just need to find a good one and figure out how to get audio (unless I'm overthinking it and it's easy).

Musician & music gear/game reviewer.

MIDI hardware: JD-990, SC-55, SC-880, SD-90, VL70-m, Motif ES, Trinity, TS-10, Proteus 2000, XK-6, E6400U

Reply 23 of 41, by obobskivich

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SpeedySPCFan wrote:

I've been considering one, I just need to find a good one and figure out how to get audio (unless I'm overthinking it and it's easy).

I'm guessing "good" will be relative - if you want super-duper high end you're probably going to have to spend some coin (find an old Faroujda or DVDO processor, for example). Personally I'd probably give a $10-$15 model a shot and see what comes of it; worst to worst it's going back.

As far as audio - I'm not following you; what does that have to do with the videocard, a VGA<->S-Video converter, etc? 😕

Reply 24 of 41, by AidanExamineer

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leileilol wrote:
On a Mystiquey Matrox (and similar G100) those dithered blendings can REALLY stand out on the screen http://leileilol.mancubus.n […]
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On a Mystiquey Matrox (and similar G100) those dithered blendings can REALLY stand out on the screen
midtown.jpg

It's like there's a yellow arrow pointing RIGHT at the problem.

Reply 25 of 41, by alexanrs

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SpeedySPCFan wrote:

I've been considering one, I just need to find a good one and figure out how to get audio (unless I'm overthinking it and it's easy).

Audio has nothing to do with the video card's output. You just need a P2 to RCA cable and connect your TV to the Sound Card's line out.

Reply 26 of 41, by idspispopd

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SpeedySPCFan wrote:
I had bought a Mystique thinking that I would have issues with the Voodoo 3 in DOS. Does it? If it doesn't, at least I get to ha […]
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I had bought a Mystique thinking that I would have issues with the Voodoo 3 in DOS. Does it? If it doesn't, at least I get to have a nice looking card laying around and MW2 Mystique. 😒
...
Is there any way to have them not emulate the SB in DOS? I'm not really a fan of how the SB or any of its variants sound, so I'd like to avoid that if possible.
...
Wait, really? I thought the Mystique was supposed to be pretty good in Windows.

Re 1.: http://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/
Re 2.: Just don't load the DOS drivers for your PCI sound card. In that case you still need an additional ISA sound card, otherwise you will have no sound in DOS. Makes sense if you want to use the PCI sound card in Windows.
Re 3: It was quite good when it was released, as long as you only use it for plain 2D it is fine. Depending on the resolution and colour depth you might want to have a 4MB model. But for 3D it is quite bad, and video acceleration is also better with later cards.

Reply 27 of 41, by F2bnp

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AidanExamineer wrote:
leileilol wrote:
On a Mystiquey Matrox (and similar G100) those dithered blendings can REALLY stand out on the screen http://leileilol.mancubus.n […]
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On a Mystiquey Matrox (and similar G100) those dithered blendings can REALLY stand out on the screen
midtown.jpg

It's like there's a yellow arrow pointing RIGHT at the problem.

130.gif

Putas' website is full of these, it's just priceless, I suggest everybody gives it a read as he's done an amazing job with cards he's tested. 😀

Reply 29 of 41, by SpeedySPCFan

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alexanrs wrote:
SpeedySPCFan wrote:

I've been considering one, I just need to find a good one and figure out how to get audio (unless I'm overthinking it and it's easy).

Audio has nothing to do with the video card's output. You just need a P2 to RCA cable and connect your TV to the Sound Card's line out.

Sounds good, thanks!

AidanExamineer wrote:
leileilol wrote:

On a Mystiquey Matrox (and similar G100) those dithered blendings can REALLY stand out on the screen
-snip-

It's like there's a yellow arrow pointing RIGHT at the problem.

Even the arrow knows something is wrong!

idspispopd wrote:

Re 1.: http://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/
Re 2.: Just don't load the DOS drivers for your PCI sound card. In that case you still need an additional ISA sound card, otherwise you will have no sound in DOS. Makes sense if you want to use the PCI sound card in Windows.
Re 3: It was quite good when it was released, as long as you only use it for plain 2D it is fine. Depending on the resolution and colour depth you might want to have a 4MB model. But for 3D it is quite bad, and video acceleration is also better with later cards.

Most of the games on the DOS_TESTS page I'm not looking to play.

Alright, thanks. Apparently it can emulate another Ensoniq card with their drivers so I may try that. I'll be buying an ISA card sometime later anyways (the AudioPCI was cheap and worked fine for Windows, I'll look into a better ISA card later).

Yeah, I had no intentions of using it in 3D with the exception of MechWarrior 2 for Mystique.

obobskivich wrote:
SpeedySPCFan wrote:

I've been considering one, I just need to find a good one and figure out how to get audio (unless I'm overthinking it and it's easy).

I'm guessing "good" will be relative - if you want super-duper high end you're probably going to have to spend some coin (find an old Faroujda or DVDO processor, for example). Personally I'd probably give a $10-$15 model a shot and see what comes of it; worst to worst it's going back.

As far as audio - I'm not following you; what does that have to do with the videocard, a VGA<->S-Video converter, etc? 😕

Alright, I'll try that.

I meant getting audio in the recorded footage. Someone else already tackled that for me in another post ("You just need a P2 to RCA cable and connect your TV to the Sound Card's line out.") though. I should have worded what I said better since it does have nothing to do with the video card. :x

Musician & music gear/game reviewer.

MIDI hardware: JD-990, SC-55, SC-880, SD-90, VL70-m, Motif ES, Trinity, TS-10, Proteus 2000, XK-6, E6400U

Reply 30 of 41, by jxhicks

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Figured I'd chime in since I have some experience with the hell that is the AudioPCI. If, as you say, you are only interested in Windows games, you should not have any problems. And honestly, if you play the occasional DOS game from within Windows you probably wont have any problems. Yes, if the game only supports FM sound, it will sound like crap. If the game supports Generel MIDI or Ensoniq Soundscape sound, it will sound pretty damn good, especially with the 4MB patch set.

The card will become a pain in the ass if you try to play games in real DOS. The card requires a TSR to function, and there are so many versions of the drivers, that it's a miracle to get working right.

Reply 31 of 41, by meljor

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Voodoo3 is a VERY nice card and a good allrounder, and absolutely the best 3dfx card for the money
(i love all 3dfx cards but v3 is CHEAP, fast and has good output quality. And when you digg trough Vogons you will find that it is also working with a lot of older 3dfx games as long as you use the right drivers/patches)

Imho Matrox is overrated, it has good image quality but there is no WOW-factor compared to other cards.... 2d can be slow and 3d simply sucks.

Voodoo3 works fine in dos and a p2 cpu is fast enough to feed it for a lot of games. P3 is a much better match though as the card scales well.

Audiopci works fine in most games but i really prefer the isa cards since they are trouble free (for me). I use SB16, Awe32 and Awe64 isa cards and they all work great in every game so far, in dos and 98se.
Since you have an isa slot: use it!

asus tx97-e, 233mmx, voodoo1, s3 virge ,sb16
asus p5a, k6-3+ @ 550mhz, voodoo2 12mb sli, gf2 gts, awe32
asus p3b-f, p3-700, voodoo3 3500TV agp, awe64
asus tusl2-c, p3-S 1,4ghz, voodoo5 5500, live!
asus a7n8x DL, barton cpu, 6800ultra, Voodoo3 pci, audigy1

Reply 32 of 41, by meljor

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Voodoo3 is a VERY nice card and a good allrounder, and absolutely the best 3dfx card for the money
(i love all 3dfx cards but v3 is CHEAP, fast and has good output quality. And when you digg trough Vogons you will find that it is also working with a lot of older 3dfx games as long as you use the right drivers/patches)

Imho Matrox is overrated, it has good image quality but there is no WOW-factor compared to other cards.... 2d can be slow and 3d simply sucks.

Voodoo3 works fine in dos and a p2 cpu is fast enough to feed it for a lot of games. P3 is a much better match though as the card scales well.

Audiopci works fine in most games but i really prefer the isa cards since they are trouble free (for me). I use SB16, Awe32 and Awe64 isa cards and they all work great in every game so far, in dos and 98se.
Since you have an isa slot: use it!

asus tx97-e, 233mmx, voodoo1, s3 virge ,sb16
asus p5a, k6-3+ @ 550mhz, voodoo2 12mb sli, gf2 gts, awe32
asus p3b-f, p3-700, voodoo3 3500TV agp, awe64
asus tusl2-c, p3-S 1,4ghz, voodoo5 5500, live!
asus a7n8x DL, barton cpu, 6800ultra, Voodoo3 pci, audigy1

Reply 33 of 41, by smeezekitty

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Imho Matrox is overrated, it has good image quality but there is no WOW-factor compared to other cards.... 2d can be slow and 3d simply sucks.

^ This

I tried swapping my S3 ViRGE for a Matrox Mystique and quickly put the ViRGE back in. Very limited acceleration on the matrox

It's like there's a yellow arrow pointing RIGHT at the problem.

This combined with the reaction GIF was too funny

Reply 34 of 41, by jxhicks

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meljor wrote:

Audiopci works fine in most games but i really prefer the isa cards since they are trouble free (for me). I use SB16, Awe32 and Awe64 isa cards and they all work great in every game so far, in dos and 98se.
Since you have an isa slot: use it!

Agreed, I eventually switched to an Awe64 and it has been smooth sailing since.

Reply 35 of 41, by leileilol

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F2bnp wrote:

Putas' website is full of these, it's just priceless, I suggest everybody gives it a read as he's done an amazing job with cards he's tested. 😀

To be nice about the G100 though, its Direct3D HAL driver is more compatible than the PCX2 (despite having more limitations) and performs a lot better than both Rage Pro and PCX2 framerate wise. 😀 and Techland's Direct3D GL wrapper gets Q3 working with it 😀 😀 😀

apsosig.png
long live PCem

Reply 36 of 41, by SpeedySPCFan

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jxhicks wrote:

Figured I'd chime in since I have some experience with the hell that is the AudioPCI. If, as you say, you are only interested in Windows games, you should not have any problems. And honestly, if you play the occasional DOS game from within Windows you probably wont have any problems. Yes, if the game only supports FM sound, it will sound like crap. If the game supports Generel MIDI or Ensoniq Soundscape sound, it will sound pretty damn good, especially with the 4MB patch set.

The card will become a pain in the ass if you try to play games in real DOS. The card requires a TSR to function, and there are so many versions of the drivers, that it's a miracle to get working right.

Alright, thanks!

When I get to playing games in real DOS, if I have too many issues, I'll just pick up an AWE64 (best sounding SB to me next to the AWE32, but that's pretty expensive).

meljor wrote:
Voodoo3 is a VERY nice card and a good allrounder, and absolutely the best 3dfx card for the money (i love all 3dfx cards but v […]
Show full quote

Voodoo3 is a VERY nice card and a good allrounder, and absolutely the best 3dfx card for the money
(i love all 3dfx cards but v3 is CHEAP, fast and has good output quality. And when you digg trough Vogons you will find that it is also working with a lot of older 3dfx games as long as you use the right drivers/patches)

Imho Matrox is overrated, it has good image quality but there is no WOW-factor compared to other cards.... 2d can be slow and 3d simply sucks.

Voodoo3 works fine in dos and a p2 cpu is fast enough to feed it for a lot of games. P3 is a much better match though as the card scales well.

That alleviates most of my worries, I thought most earlier games wouldn't work with it. Appreciated!

Musician & music gear/game reviewer.

MIDI hardware: JD-990, SC-55, SC-880, SD-90, VL70-m, Motif ES, Trinity, TS-10, Proteus 2000, XK-6, E6400U

Reply 37 of 41, by vetz

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See here for Voodoo3 DOS Glide games:
Voodoo 2 DOS Glide compatibility matrix

All the good games work 😀
For Windows games there are a handful as well, most notable Mechwarrior 2, but here get a PowerVR card and rock some mechs, its the best version 😀

All in all over 95% of all the Glide games released will work on a Voodoo3.

3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)
3D Acceleration Comparison Episodes

Reply 38 of 41, by SpeedySPCFan

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vetz wrote:
See here for Voodoo3 DOS Glide games: Voodoo 2 DOS Glide compatibility matrix […]
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See here for Voodoo3 DOS Glide games:
Voodoo 2 DOS Glide compatibility matrix

All the good games work 😀
For Windows games there are a handful as well, most notable Mechwarrior 2, but here get a PowerVR card and rock some mechs, its the best version 😀

All in all over 95% of all the Glide games released will work on a Voodoo3.

Yeah, I'm gonna get a PowerVR card when I can. I'll probably import a Hercules from Germany because M3Ds are too rare and expensive, and I can't find any NEC cards anywhere.

Also, thank you for the list!

Musician & music gear/game reviewer.

MIDI hardware: JD-990, SC-55, SC-880, SD-90, VL70-m, Motif ES, Trinity, TS-10, Proteus 2000, XK-6, E6400U

Reply 39 of 41, by vetz

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SpeedySPCFan wrote:
vetz wrote:
See here for Voodoo3 DOS Glide games: Voodoo 2 DOS Glide compatibility matrix […]
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See here for Voodoo3 DOS Glide games:
Voodoo 2 DOS Glide compatibility matrix

All the good games work 😀
For Windows games there are a handful as well, most notable Mechwarrior 2, but here get a PowerVR card and rock some mechs, its the best version 😀

All in all over 95% of all the Glide games released will work on a Voodoo3.

Yeah, I'm gonna get a PowerVR card when I can. I'll probably import a Hercules from Germany because M3Ds are too rare and expensive, and I can't find any NEC cards anywhere.

Also, thank you for the list!

Hercules Kyro cards do not support PowerSGL.

There is a Apocalypse 3Dx (PCX2) for sale for 30 euro atm (not my card/sale), PM me if you're interested and I'll send you the link.

3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)
3D Acceleration Comparison Episodes