VOGONS


First post, by Predator99

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Dont have time to start this project now but would like to prepare: Does anybody own this card? Mine is missing some components. Maybe its possibble to guess the caps but for the "Q1" (red-green circle) I have no idea what to put in?

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I think the cable can also be assembled from an IDE-cable and a socket. Pinout should be clear after identifying GND and VCC.

Already got the 8086 from China and found a reference photo, but I cannot read any value.

Thanks!

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Reply 2 of 46, by Anonymous Coward

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I could be mistaken, but I thought that the Mach 10 used an 80186 rather than an 8086.

*edit* My mistake. I was thinking of the Orchid card. It seems weird to use what's basically an SBC to upgrade an 8088 to an 8086.

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Reply 3 of 46, by Predator99

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Anonymous Coward wrote on 2020-05-15, 12:45:

I could be mistaken, but I thought that the Mach 10 used an 80186 rather than an 8086.

*edit* My mistake. I was thinking of the Orchid card. It seems weird to use what's basically an SBC to upgrade an 8088 to an 8086.

Indeed. There is an interesting note about its features:
Microsoft Card Aids Windows On 8088 PCs

Microsoft Corp. last week introduced an add-on card the company said will speed up the currently s luggish perfonnance of Microsoft’s Windows on some 8088-based machines.

The $549 Mach 10 card, which will work with the IBM PC and some compatibles, uses an Intel 8086 microprocessor operating at a clock rate of 9.54 MHz, double the usual 4.77-MHz rate of PCs with 8088 processors. The board, which includes a copy of Windows, has 8K of fast cache RAM (random-access memory), Microsofts new Inport graphics input chip and port, and an Inport Mouse. The cache memory provides the 8086 processor with fast access to frequently accessed information, the company said.

The Mach 10 requires a lull-size expansion slot and has a connector cable that plugs into the empty motherboard socket of the 8088 processor it replaces. To get around problems that the faster chip would otherwise create when used with some time-loop-dependent Basic programs and certain copy protection schemes, users can switch between the normal clock speed and the faster rate.

Microsoft, which faces competition from makers of PC speed-up cards using the more advanced Intel 80286 microproces sor. said it doesn’t think such cards offer much of an advantage over the Mach 10. The firm claims the Mach 10 will speed typical throughput by a factor of two to 2.5.
“If you rate a PC at 1, the Mach 10 is about 2, and an 80286 board we tested is about a 2.1.” said Michael Cooper, general manager of Microsoft’s hardware division. Microsoft will try to compete with 80286-based boards on the basis of price, he said.
Microsoft chairman Bill Gates emphasized that the 8-bit bus of 8088-based machines limits the cost-effectiveness of 80286-based boards because some of that chip’s performance is based on a 16-bit bus. “People shouldn’t be fooled into thinking that a 80286-based expansion card will provide access to future operating systems from Microsoft,” he said, adding that future operating systems can’t possibly expand the data bus of existing PCs.

Reply 5 of 46, by therevisiona

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Predator99 wrote on 2020-05-15, 19:12:
derSammler wrote on 2020-05-15, 12:01:

Q1 is a simple pnp transistor.

Thanks! There are different types to choose from - what characteristics are important?

A standart NTE159M should do the trick

Reply 6 of 46, by Horun

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Predator99 wrote on 2020-05-15, 19:08:

The $549 Mach 10 card, which will work with the IBM PC and some compatibles, uses an Intel 8086 microprocessor operating at a clock rate of 9.54 MHz, double the usual 4.77-MHz rate of PCs with 8088 processors. The board, which includes a copy of Windows,

Interesting ! I wonder which version of Windows they included. 1.01, 1.03, 1.04 or 2.03 are the only ones that would run on a 8088/8086 AFAIK. Win 2.10 came in both 286 and 386 optimized versions (I actually have both)... just curious...

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 7 of 46, by brian105

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I believe the regular Windows 2.0 and 2.1 can run on the 8086 and 8088, and even Windows 3.0 can run on them (very, very, very slowly).

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Reply 8 of 46, by Horun

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brian105 wrote on 2020-05-16, 02:40:

I believe the regular Windows 2.0 and 2.1 can run on the 8086 and 8088, and even Windows 3.0 can run on them (very, very, very slowly).

I thought Windows 3 required Extended memory which only 286 and up cpu's can provide. Yep know Windows 2.0 will run on an XT, but am still curious which version was originally included with the MS 8086 card.

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 9 of 46, by JidaiGeki

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Pretty sure it’s Windows 1.03. Win 2.0 came out in 1987.
Infoworld had an article in Oct 86 on the newly released Mach 10 product bundle - https://books.google.com.au/books?id=oDwEAAAA … Q6AEwAHoECAUQAQ
Going by the version info at winworldpc, v1.03 is dated Aug 86. Guessing it would be unlikely to be an earlier version than that.
https://winworldpc.com/product/windows-10/103

Reply 10 of 46, by Horun

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JidaiGeki wrote on 2020-05-16, 20:01:
Pretty sure it’s Windows 1.03. Win 2.0 came out in 1987. Infoworld had an article in Oct 86 on the newly released Mach 10 produc […]
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Pretty sure it’s Windows 1.03. Win 2.0 came out in 1987.
Infoworld had an article in Oct 86 on the newly released Mach 10 product bundle - https://books.google.com.au/books?id=oDwEAAAA … Q6AEwAHoECAUQAQ
Going by the version info at winworldpc, v1.03 is dated Aug 86. Guessing it would be unlikely to be an earlier version than that.
https://winworldpc.com/product/windows-10/103

Thanks !

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 11 of 46, by brian105

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg3rNXoVH7c
Here's a video which shows 3.0 on the 8086. 3.1 does require Extended memory, but apparently 3.0 doesn't.

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Reply 13 of 46, by matze79

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But VGA/EGA requires NEC V20 or patched Drivers on 3.0

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Reply 14 of 46, by Predator99

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therevisiona wrote on 2020-05-15, 19:15:
Predator99 wrote on 2020-05-15, 19:12:
derSammler wrote on 2020-05-15, 12:01:

Q1 is a simple pnp transistor.

Thanks! There are different types to choose from - what characteristics are important?

A standart NTE159M should do the trick

I will try this one, hope this works?
https://www.ebay.de/itm/2N3906-Transistor-PNP … ar=571685246606
2N3906 Transistor PNP TO-92 200mA 40V

Thanks for the discussion. Hope I get it running and can report...

Reply 15 of 46, by derSammler

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matze79 wrote on 2020-05-17, 08:11:

But VGA/EGA requires NEC V20 or patched Drivers on 3.0

VGA/EGA does not belong into an XT. CGA mono is too slow already, even on a Turbo XT. While it works, it was clearly not meant to be used on XT-class machines.

Reply 16 of 46, by therevisiona

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Predator99 wrote on 2020-05-17, 08:47:
I will try this one, hope this works? https://www.ebay.de/itm/2N3906-Transistor-PNP … ar=571685246606 2N3906 Transistor PNP TO-9 […]
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therevisiona wrote on 2020-05-15, 19:15:
Predator99 wrote on 2020-05-15, 19:12:

Thanks! There are different types to choose from - what characteristics are important?

A standart NTE159M should do the trick

I will try this one, hope this works?
https://www.ebay.de/itm/2N3906-Transistor-PNP … ar=571685246606
2N3906 Transistor PNP TO-92 200mA 40V

Thanks for the discussion. Hope I get it running and can report...

Yup, should work

Reply 17 of 46, by Predator99

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I made some progress and soldered the missing parts:

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I put the card on a XT-board and it does...nothing. Thats a good sign 😉

The interesting question is now about the pinout of the CPU-connector cable. I have read that this is a 1:1 connector. My proposal is the following pinout to the 8088 (green):

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I already verified that Pin 1 and Pin 20 on my drawing are connected to GND.
Then it seems to match that the inputs of the 14HCT573 (D0-D7) below the connector are connected to Pins 9 - 16 (AD0-AD7). (purple)

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Can I do any more meaningful measurement to verify my proposal? But I think it should be safe to connect it as proposed...?

I am going to use a IDE-cable first.

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When it works I will order a connector:
https://www.jameco.com/z/8200-40-R-Connector- … Pins_42712.html

Reply 18 of 46, by Caluser2000

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derSammler wrote on 2020-05-17, 08:57:
matze79 wrote on 2020-05-17, 08:11:

But VGA/EGA requires NEC V20 or patched Drivers on 3.0

VGA/EGA does not belong into an XT. CGA mono is too slow already, even on a Turbo XT. While it works, it was clearly not meant to be used on XT-class machines.

Disagree completely. EGA runs fine on my XT Turbo running GeoWorks.

If a person is unable to source a mono or herc monitor fitting a EGA card if you have a suitable monitor or an 8-bit VGA card ,or 16 bit vga card that will work in an 8-bit slot, makes perfect sense. Some folk, like me, just do not want to muck around on mono monitors for various reasons. Location, availability, cost of shipping, prefer a colour monitor etc etc...

Better to have a system active with a more modern video card/monitor set up than holding your breath waiting for a specific monitor to show up or wasting hours and hours looking for one. That is one of the great advantages of x86 systems with ISA compared to other systems of the same era.

There's a glitch in the matrix.
A founding member of the 286 appreciation society.
Apparently 32-bit is dead and nobody likes P4s.
Of course, as always, I'm open to correction...😉

Reply 19 of 46, by Predator99

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Predator99 wrote on 2020-06-15, 20:46:
I made some progress and soldered the missing parts: IMG_9460r.jpg IMG_9461r.jpg I put the card on a XT-board and it does...noth […]
Show full quote

I made some progress and soldered the missing parts:
IMG_9460r.jpg
IMG_9461r.jpg
I put the card on a XT-board and it does...nothing. Thats a good sign 😉

The interesting question is now about the pinout of the CPU-connector cable. I have read that this is a 1:1 connector. My proposal is the following pinout to the 8088 (green):
M10Conn.jpg
I already verified that Pin 1 and Pin 20 on my drawing are connected to GND.
Then it seems to match that the inputs of the 14HCT573 (D0-D7) below the connector are connected to Pins 9 - 16 (AD0-AD7). (purple)
8088.jpg
Can I do any more meaningful measurement to verify my proposal? But I think it should be safe to connect it as proposed...?

I am going to use a IDE-cable first.
IMG_9462r.jpg
When it works I will order a connector:
https://www.jameco.com/z/8200-40-R-Connector- … Pins_42712.html

I think my cable is OK and I tried to switch on - but nothing. Could have been worser as there is no short and nothing exploded 😉

I think a reason could be thjat I tried in a Turbo-XT board:
https://arvutimuuseum.ee/th99/m/C-D/30052.htm

I noticed that the Turbo-LED is on after powerup, regardless the Turbo-switch setting. That means the CPU is running at 10 MHz which is too much for the MACH-10. Think I need to take a look if I have a real 4.77 MHz XT-baord...