wiretap wrote on 2020-06-13, 17:38:

canthearu wrote on 2020-06-13, 16:39:

I don't think it really is that big a deal for a quick photo shot

It is. Damage is done in less than a millisecond.

You would have to convince me that the risk of that happening is high. In typical conditions, it isn't a high risk.

The trip in the mail is likely to be riskier. I've had expansion cards snapped in half during shipping.

canthearu wrote on 2020-06-13, 17:47:

wiretap wrote on 2020-06-13, 17:38:

canthearu wrote on 2020-06-13, 16:39:

I don't think it really is that big a deal for a quick photo shot

It is. Damage is done in less than a millisecond.

You would have to convince me that the risk of that happening is high. In typical conditions, it isn't a high risk.

The trip in the mail is likely to be riskier. I've had expansion cards snapped in half during shipping.

The effects of exposure to ESD are cumulative . Analog Devices probably know more about this than you or me .

https://www.analog.com/media/en/training-semi … ials/MT-092.pdf

canthearu wrote on 2020-06-13, 17:47:

wiretap wrote on 2020-06-13, 17:38:

canthearu wrote on 2020-06-13, 16:39:

I don't think it really is that big a deal for a quick photo shot

It is. Damage is done in less than a millisecond.

You would have to convince me that the risk of that happening is high. In typical conditions, it isn't a high risk.

The trip in the mail is likely to be riskier. I've had expansion cards snapped in half during shipping.

The fundamental science of the issue tells us it is high, which is also the reason IC/card/board manufacturers spend millions of dollars on proper ESD controls - everything from the clothes and shoes their employees wear, the mats they stand on, the tools they use, the type of assembly line equipment they use, the part storage bins they use, the tables they use, the HVAC control systems, the shipping pack contents, the training, etc.

If you think it is a falsehood, that's ok, just know you're incorrect. There is plenty of ESDA documentation, and companies like TI, Analog Devices, TSMC, and others all even issue their own studies on the reality of the situation with data to back it up. Without proper ESD controls, DoA failures, warranty claims, and premature RMA's would cost them boatloads of money, and it has in the past.

Note that ESD damage is more serious for ICs that are not mounted in a circuit as that document above says. When mounted on a PCB it's not nearly as concerning.

I had seen ESD kill something instantly and worst one is soft kill that works for awhile then die slowly later.

Cheers,

pentiumspeed wrote on 2020-06-13, 20:03:

I had seen ESD kill something instantly and worst one is soft kill that works for awhile then die slowly later.

Someone handed me a stick of RAM once (PC100 days) and when I took it there was a nice static discharge between me and the RAM. Didnt seem to affect it at all. It lasted for at least a couple years before the machine was retired

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal...

every static discharge causes damage, that doesn't mean it automatically kills the component, a physical scratch is also damage but doesn't necessarily kill it, it's just something that is to be avoided if possible, I'm not super strict about ESD, yes I try to do all storage ESD safe, and try to discharge myself everytime I'm handling precious stuff, but carpet is just something so easily avoidable that you should not try your luck.

imi wrote on 2020-06-13, 21:11:

every static discharge causes damage, that doesn't mean it automatically kills the component, a physical scratch is also damage but doesn't necessarily kill it, it's just something that is to be avoided if possible, I'm not super strict about ESD, yes I try to do all storage ESD safe, and try to discharge myself everytime I'm handling precious stuff, but carpet is just something so easily avoidable that you should not try your luck.

Hardwood floors and wooden tables FTW.

And no retarded plastic chair mats.. Those build up static like nobody's business.

Drop damage is another to avoid ! Years ago went to buy some ram and the guy behind the counter tossed a bare ram stick in esd bag onto the glass topped counter, it went smack loudly. I told him I did not want it now that he probably damaged it by drop tossing it. He wanted to argue about how there was nothing wrong with how he handle the part. Probably did not damage it but my mind kept thinking about cold and broken solder joints down the road with that particular ram stick. Some people just do not understand that physical and static damage are real.....just my 2 cents
added: saw the picture in other thread with a video card mem chip cracked because of rough improper handling.

Horun wrote on 2020-06-13, 23:26:

Drop damage is another to avoid ! Years ago went to buy some ram and the guy behind the counter tossed it on to the glass topped counter, it went smack loudly. I told him I did not want it now that he probably damaged it by drop tossing it. He wanted to argue about how there was nothing wrong with how he handle the part. Probably did not damage it but my mind kept thinking about cold and broken solder joints down the road with that particular ram stick. Some people just do not understand that physical and static damage are real.....just my 2 cents

I so completely agree .

A friend of mine had a salesperson moron do essentially that with a hard drive . He did not end up buying it either .

wiretap wrote on 2020-06-13, 19:49:

The fundamental science of the issue tells us it is high, which is also the reason IC/card/board manufacturers spend millions of dollars on proper ESD controls...

And nature doesn't like to work with exact numbers... That's why our modern world is going bs... Too many people worried and stressed on minusies end doing nothing because their fear in the hypotetical risks of doing anything.
Unless you are operating a production line with millions of boards shipped every day, most of ESD cautions for these environment are excesive in domestical use. As you said, the populated pcbs you have at home were already tested by engineers at these lines and equipped with components which harden them for diverse environment manipulation. Many of these aren't that fragile to ESD at all, having nice tolerance ranges to external manipulation. If wasn't that way, anything found at dumpsters would be f*cked and unrecoverable already, but it isn't, as shown in this subforum threads (i don't imagine guys at dumpsters handling PCB "garbage" all dressed in yellow/blue e-lab coats and earth grounded 😜).

Relax and stop being that severe with the ESD topic.

hyoenmadan wrote on 2020-06-14, 00:01:

And nature doesn't like to work with exact numbers... That's why our modern world is going bs... Too many people worried and st […]
Show full quote

wiretap wrote on 2020-06-13, 19:49:

The fundamental science of the issue tells us it is high, which is also the reason IC/card/board manufacturers spend millions of dollars on proper ESD controls...

And nature doesn't like to work with exact numbers... That's why our modern world is going bs... Too many people worried and stressed on minusies end doing nothing because their fear in the hypotetical risks of doing anything.
Unless you are operating a production line with millions of boards shipped every day, most of ESD cautions for these environment are excesive in domestical use. As you said, the populated pcbs you have at home were already tested by engineers at these lines and equipped with components which harden them for diverse environment manipulation. Many of these aren't that fragile to ESD at all, having nice tolerance ranges to external manipulation. If wasn't that way, anything found at dumpsters would be f*cked and unrecoverable already, but it isn't, as shown in this subforum threads (i don't imagine guys at dumpsters handling PCB "garbage" all dressed in yellow/blue e-lab coats and earth grounded 😜).

Relax and stop being that severe with the ESD topic.

I'm only being realistic and making decisions based on the science of the matter. Taking precautions at home while building and handling equipment is cheap and easy to minimize ESD damage. A $5 wrist strap and a $20 grounded antistatic mat. Also, most of your modern hardware has shunts for ESD protection, however they only assume you're already wearing a grounded wrist strap and using a grounded mat because they're only good to mitigate ~5000v in most implementations. Most static charges if you're ungrounded are far beyond that, especially if you can feel it shock you. The IC's themselves are fragile, and even more so in modern architecture since it is built on a much smaller nanometer scale.

wiretap wrote on 2020-06-14, 00:16:

I'm only being realistic and making decisions based on the science of the matter. Taking precautions at home while building and handling equipment is cheap and easy to minimize ESD damage. A $5 wrist strap and a $20 grounded antistatic mat.

Yours is a type of realism which is too realistic, so it ends being unrealistic too 😜. As i said before, nature doesn't drive by exact percentages and numbers, so these things (even many chinese crap btw) have some nice tolerance for environment manipulation, shown by all the crap you can find in the dumps an waste centers, which will work long time even exposed to some environment beating. Personally, I have the ESD mat... But I don't like to being "connected" with a strap as long as is about my personal stuff. There will be guys not using even the mat. And that is fine, as long as is their personal crap.

The damn earth strap usage just for the sake of the legal insurance when working with other's property.

not putting precious old hardware on carpet is not unrealistic, it's literally one of the easiest things to do, because you don't actually need to do anything at all to accomplish it.

just
don't
do
it.

just because a lot of hardware we acquire has been to hell and back does not mean we shouldn't take care of it.
I don't use wrist straps either, I have a grounded work mat for sensetive work, and discharge myself whenever possible before handling, and always try to touch PCBs by their edges, no matter if old or new.

imi wrote on 2020-06-14, 00:54:

not putting precious old hardware on carpet is not unrealistic, it's literally one of the easiest things to do, because you don't actually need to do anything at all to accomplish it.

Lolz, that would be a bit extreme. In my case, no problemo. The floor in my work room doesn't have carpet or anything like that.

hyoenmadan wrote on 2020-06-14, 00:01:

wiretap wrote on 2020-06-13, 19:49:

The fundamental science of the issue tells us it is high, which is also the reason IC/card/board manufacturers spend millions of dollars on proper ESD controls...

And nature doesn't like to work with exact numbers... That's why our modern world is going bs... Too many people worried and stressed on minusies end doing nothing because their fear in the hypotetical risks of doing anything.

The reason why I do not stress about it is because I can do nothing about how the seller presents and photo's his wares for sale. And in real world scenarios, failure rate from this is pretty low (not zero, but low). It is likely to turn up and be in fine working condition when it gets here.

If it arrives not working, I'll request a refund. Otherwise I cannot control what the seller does.

I am definitely NOT saying to take photos of your hardware for sale while laying them on carpet. It isn't how I would do it, and I don't think other people should either. Benchtops are much better places for that, safer, and easier to use.

hyoenmadan wrote on 2020-06-14, 00:50:

wiretap wrote on 2020-06-14, 00:16:

I'm only being realistic and making decisions based on the science of the matter. Taking precautions at home while building and handling equipment is cheap and easy to minimize ESD damage. A $5 wrist strap and a $20 grounded antistatic mat.

Yours is a type of realism which is too realistic, so it ends being unrealistic too 😜. As i said before, nature doesn't drive by exact percentages and numbers, so these things (even many chinese crap btw) have some nice tolerance for environment manipulation, shown by all the crap you can find in the dumps an waste centers, which will work long time even exposed to some environment beating. Personally, I have the ESD mat... But I don't like to being "connected" with a strap as long as is about my personal stuff. There will be guys not using even the mat. And that is fine, as long as is their personal crap.

The damn earth strap usage just for the sake of the legal insurance when working with other's property.

I'm not the one getting bent out of shape about properly handling ESD sensitive components. I'm merely stating facts to help others and point out your false rooted statements. If you want to damage hardware or and handle it in a manner that is not recommended, that's up to you. It isn't very professional to portray to others it is fine, because people trying to learn will be mislead. This forum is all about helping others, not to guide them with incorrect information.

wiretap wrote on 2020-06-14, 02:05:

hyoenmadan wrote on 2020-06-14, 00:50:

wiretap wrote on 2020-06-14, 00:16:

I'm only being realistic and making decisions based on the science of the matter. Taking precautions at home while building and handling equipment is cheap and easy to minimize ESD damage. A $5 wrist strap and a $20 grounded antistatic mat.

Yours is a type of realism which is too realistic, so it ends being unrealistic too 😜. As i said before, nature doesn't drive by exact percentages and numbers, so these things (even many chinese crap btw) have some nice tolerance for environment manipulation, shown by all the crap you can find in the dumps an waste centers, which will work long time even exposed to some environment beating. Personally, I have the ESD mat... But I don't like to being "connected" with a strap as long as is about my personal stuff. There will be guys not using even the mat. And that is fine, as long as is their personal crap.

The damn earth strap usage just for the sake of the legal insurance when working with other's property.

I'm not the one getting bent out of shape about properly handling ESD sensitive components. I'm merely stating facts to help others and point out your false rooted statements. If you want to damage hardware or and handle it in a manner that is not recommended, that's up to you. It isn't very professional to portray to others it is fine, because people trying to learn will be mislead. This forum is all about helping others, not to guide them with incorrect information.

I agree .

Technically you don't want/need to be grounded. You want to be at the same potential as the equipment you are touching. Touching the outside of a computer case or the metal bracket of an expansion card is usually enough. Static electricity is high on voltage but low on current meaning it dissipates fast those sorts of things without travelling to sensitive components.