sliderider wrote on 2020-01-15, 11:40:

As soon as the original GeForce dropped, the writing was on the wall for many other card makers. The Voodoo 4/5 arriving late and without features and performance that nVidia cards had, was the end for 3DFX. ATi was the only one that upped their game enough to remain competitive, and they had a few stumbles along the way.

32-bit color wouldn't be a thing until then, so it was largely irrelevant when it first started to appear until devs would support it more. The performance hit to early cards that supported it was just too great. 3DFX would have still been a viable choice.

At that specific time both 32bit and T&L were not really a thing in the real world performances BUT they were solutions that showed how much the chips were going to the future with their advanced complexity and DirectX compatibility. If I think reading people back than still comparing sometimes the Radeon 8500 card with a Voodoo5 5500 card, that didn't make any sense considering the amount of differences.

You know reviews at the time said the v3 really should have been called the banshee2, and only wasn't due to marketing.

The voodoo4 should have been the v3, and the rampage should have gone head to head with geforce.

But really, it was the business decision to shaft oems that killed them, but it is all ancient history now. I am just glad I can still play quake 2 on v2sli and hl1 on a 5500...keeping a bit of the 90s alive makes it bearable.

kolderman wrote on 2020-01-18, 11:38:

You know reviews at the time said the v3 really should have been called the banshee2, and only wasn't due to marketing.

The voodoo4 should have been the v3, and the rampage should have gone head to head with geforce.

But really, it was the business decision to shaft oems that killed them, but it is all ancient history now. I am just glad I can still play quake 2 on v2sli and hl1 on a 5500...keeping a bit of the 90s alive makes it bearable.

Yeah the Voodoo 4 4500 clocked at 183Mhz would have been a great Voodoo3 that should have been released in just two version (come on the 3500 didn't make any sense imho) as the initial discussion seems were talking about (one @ 125Mhz and the other @183Mhz if I remember or something like that) and imho it could have easily been without the oem/retail confusing situation, but still they had to be a short term product while already been working on a project like the Rampage/whatever and instead we were still reading about multi-multi-chip solutions...
At the end the company had their great moments in history but probably didn't get the point of what was going to happens in terms of the speed things were changing in just few years. Let's just think to the console market too. The whole V3-V4-V5 story feels like the 32X-Saturn console situation back then.

To be honest, and to say it out directly. I do not feel or see any real and major difference, between Voodoo3-3500 and TNT2-Ultra, when I am playing games on something in the neighbourhood of P3-500. Shure there are differences, yet they are really so small, that only a major fanboy of eighter of them, will say that his or hers choice is the absolute best and that small detail means everything. Yet if the machine is slower than that P3-500, then the Voodoo3 actually are a better choice. Faster, like P3-933/1000 and the TNT2 tend to shine. I actually remember that people that did not have the fastest top of the line machine back then, used to buy a V3, because the card was like the best option to make something not that fast, a bit faster and bring it up on par with the really expensive top of the line machines. So.... Basically. TNT2's and G400's are better suited in something like a 1,4 ghz Tualatin than a Voodoo3 is. And if the machine you have, are a P3-500 or K6-3-550, then the Voodoo3 are the better choice. However. If you have that Tualatin and use the TNT2, then V2-SLI is kind of great to have in the machine as well. You know... Just for the sake of having access to glide as well. Sure there are other choices, like Geforce and stuff, yet this tread are centered around TNT2 vs. Voodoo3.

voodoo 3 had the edge on compatibility at the time, and it was faster here and there...
but the tnt2 was good,
what was bad was the m64.

It's always worth mentioning the 2D/DOS quality of voodoo3 is almost unsurpassed.

SPBHM wrote on 2020-01-20, 21:43:

voodoo 3 had the edge on compatibility at the time, and it was faster here and there...
but the tnt2 was good,
what was bad was the m64.

That would be more in the realm of Voodoo1. By 1999, it did not matter if you used V3 or TNT2 and as you still would use TNT2 and V3 well into 2000, then you would also use DX7 for TNT2. Yes, M64 are bad.

kolderman wrote on 2020-01-20, 21:49:

It's always worth mentioning the 2D/DOS quality of voodoo3 is almost unsurpassed.

Except.... You get the same out of V2-SLI than you get from V3-3000, and pairing V2-SLI up with one of the following, you get a way better Dos setup for 2D gaming.

- S3-Trio64v+
- S3-Virge325
- Cirrus Logic CL5446

Yes. Sure. If you have something like K6-II-500, K6-III-550 or P3-500/600 or something like those, then the best choice is still V3-3500. If you are only comparing V3 to TNT2. You still need to talk about were the card is used, as the card alone, can never speak in terms of what is the best solution. Hence I gave V2-SLI as the example.

kolderman wrote on 2020-01-20, 21:49:

It's always worth mentioning the 2D/DOS quality of voodoo3 is almost unsurpassed.

So true. I was an original V1, v2 and V5 buyer and it was only within the last 8-10 years I picked up a V3 out of curiosity. Side by side it has the finest IQ of the lot hands down and miles ahead of period D3D. It's a pretty card and it would be a close call if I had to choose between it and a V5 for a dedicated single-card Glide rig.

But there are other considerations too - like rearward compatibilty - that make the "real" 3dfx workhorse - the V2 - a must have. The V1 is historic and fun to trot out from time to time but the V2 gives you the kick to play basically any Glide game reasonably well (max'd out most of the time but limited to 800x600) and has much better IQ even though hampered by the pass-thru cable as does the V1. I flip-flop on what build to lean on depending on mood but currently my rig is Rendition 2x00 & V2. Coupled with a fast cpu it does pretty good.

I don't think 3df actually suffers from a rose-colored glasses nostalgia problem as much as claimed. It's unique image quality is independent of it's performance and is a subjective reaction to what's seen on the screen, and it's completely valid to prefer the "3dfx look" over other graphic modes. I find it interesting too that while glide wrappers can bring the glory of 3dfx to modern screens the image still misses a subtle "x-factor" you can only replicate with original hardware. I think it's a situation similar to vinyl vs digital music - both sides are at the same time - and this point it's clear the analog experience is far from a just an aging boomer nostaligia trip. But wrappers are the way to go absent a strong graphical preference - and the way to save clams!

brostenen wrote on 2020-01-20, 22:15:

That would be more in the realm of Voodoo1. By 1999, it did not matter if you used V3 or TNT2 and as you still would use TNT2 an […]
Show full quote

SPBHM wrote on 2020-01-20, 21:43:

voodoo 3 had the edge on compatibility at the time, and it was faster here and there...
but the tnt2 was good,
what was bad was the m64.

That would be more in the realm of Voodoo1. By 1999, it did not matter if you used V3 or TNT2 and as you still would use TNT2 and V3 well into 2000, then you would also use DX7 for TNT2. Yes, M64 are bad.

kolderman wrote on 2020-01-20, 21:49:

It's always worth mentioning the 2D/DOS quality of voodoo3 is almost unsurpassed.

Except.... You get the same out of V2-SLI than you get from V3-3000, and pairing V2-SLI up with one of the following, you get a way better Dos setup for 2D gaming.

- S3-Trio64v+
- S3-Virge325
- Cirrus Logic CL5446

Yes. Sure. If you have something like K6-II-500, K6-III-550 or P3-500/600 or something like those, then the best choice is still V3-3500. If you are only comparing V3 to TNT2. You still need to talk about were the card is used, as the card alone, can never speak in terms of what is the best solution. Hence I gave V2-SLI as the example.

Not sure I agree with the "way better Dos setup for 2D gaming" . According to both my personal experience and https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/ , other than Alien Trilogy in high colour and maybe the corner case of Tomb Raider with a PCX2, I don't see why the S3 and Cirrus based cards were significantly better than a Voodoo 3 . The Voodoo3 also had excellent VGA image quality in 2D (good RAMDAC and well designed analogue filtering), whereas the output quality of the S3 and CL cards varied between OEMs. Then there is the fact that, with Voodoo2, you still needed the crappy pass-through cable or a monitor with multiple VGA inputs . Then, there were the SLI related image issues. I had some at the time using two matched Voodoo2 cards and could never fully resolve them (gave up before I did). I'm not saying it's impossible to resolve them, just that it can be a hassle . Finally, there's the fact that a Voodoo2 SLI plus 2D card requires 3 PCI slots instead of one for a Voodoo 3.

You're saying the v5 has inferior IQ to the v3?

maxtherabbit wrote on 2020-06-16, 01:40:

You're saying the v5 has inferior IQ to the v3?

Are you talking to me ? I don't think anybody said the Voodoo5 IQ is worse than Voodoo3 in this thread, or have I missed something ?
I have never used a Voodoo 4 or 5, but would buy one if I happened to see a sanely priced one (especially the DVI equipped MAC edition of the Voodoo 5) .

EDIT : I see, you are referring to tincup's comment regarding Voodoo 3 as being the finest .

Err...the v5 has true 32bit color....v3 did not.

Does the V3 in 2D mode (i.e. the Windows desktop) use real 32 bit color?

yes

While it's true that the Glide advantage was mostly gone by the year 2000, there were still a couple of cases where Voodoo3 would give you an edge over the contemporary TNT2. The most prominent ones being Unreal Tournament (1999), Diablo 2 (2000) and Deus Ex (2000).

This was mainly due to unoptimized D3D support in those games, but I did notice that they also seemed to be more RAM hungry when running D3D compared to Glide. This doesn't matter much nowadays, when we can get 512 MB SDRAM with ease, but it was noticeable back in the day when having anything over 128 MB was a luxury.

darry wrote on 2020-06-16, 00:26:

brostenen wrote on 2020-01-20, 22:15:

That would be more in the realm of Voodoo1. By 1999, it did not matter if you used V3 or TNT2 and as you still would use TNT2 an […]
Show full quote

SPBHM wrote on 2020-01-20, 21:43:

voodoo 3 had the edge on compatibility at the time, and it was faster here and there...
but the tnt2 was good,
what was bad was the m64.

That would be more in the realm of Voodoo1. By 1999, it did not matter if you used V3 or TNT2 and as you still would use TNT2 and V3 well into 2000, then you would also use DX7 for TNT2. Yes, M64 are bad.

kolderman wrote on 2020-01-20, 21:49:

It's always worth mentioning the 2D/DOS quality of voodoo3 is almost unsurpassed.

Except.... You get the same out of V2-SLI than you get from V3-3000, and pairing V2-SLI up with one of the following, you get a way better Dos setup for 2D gaming.

- S3-Trio64v+
- S3-Virge325
- Cirrus Logic CL5446

Yes. Sure. If you have something like K6-II-500, K6-III-550 or P3-500/600 or something like those, then the best choice is still V3-3500. If you are only comparing V3 to TNT2. You still need to talk about were the card is used, as the card alone, can never speak in terms of what is the best solution. Hence I gave V2-SLI as the example.

Not sure I agree with the "way better Dos setup for 2D gaming" . According to both my personal experience and https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/ , other than Alien Trilogy in high colour and maybe the corner case of Tomb Raider with a PCX2, I don't see why the S3 and Cirrus based cards were significantly better than a Voodoo 3 . The Voodoo3 also had excellent VGA image quality in 2D (good RAMDAC and well designed analogue filtering), whereas the output quality of the S3 and CL cards varied between OEMs. Then there is the fact that, with Voodoo2, you still needed the crappy pass-through cable or a monitor with multiple VGA inputs . Then, there were the SLI related image issues. I had some at the time using two matched Voodoo2 cards and could never fully resolve them (gave up before I did). I'm not saying it's impossible to resolve them, just that it can be a hassle . Finally, there's the fact that a Voodoo2 SLI plus 2D card requires 3 PCI slots instead of one for a Voodoo 3.

Yup. I know most of those things, and of course you use an S3 of good quality. Those three cards I mentioned, are all better suited for 2D gfx in Dos, than any Voodoo cards. And of course you use high quality loopback cables, and if you happens to have mis matching V2's, then you use FasVoodoo 4.6 drivers. Issues solved, and you get a better overall machine for Dos games.

These things I mention, are kind of common knowledge here on Vogons. Just go and do a search, however it will be some job, to read through +10 years of posts.

The reason why those cards I mention, are better for Dos gaming, is that they are 100% compatible with Dos titles. Again. Use a card of good brand, as you get stuff like bad black levels on S3 cards. I recommend the Number9 version of Virge-325 for anything faster than Pentium-133/166. Voodoo3 for K6-II/III machines, because they are fastest and most compatible with those CPU's, and because you need more horsepowers for TNT2 and G400. Going for Pentium3-1000 and faster, I recommend something like TNT2 or GF2. As that CPU can deliver what the cards require.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2020-06-16, 07:46:

While it's true that the Glide advantage was mostly gone by the year 2000, there were still a couple of cases where Voodoo3 would give you an edge over the contemporary TNT2. The most prominent ones being Unreal Tournament (1999), Diablo 2 (2000) and Deus Ex (2000).

This was mainly due to unoptimized D3D support in those games, but I did notice that they also seemed to be more RAM hungry when running D3D compared to Glide. This doesn't matter much nowadays, when we can get 512 MB SDRAM with ease, but it was noticeable back in the day when having anything over 128 MB was a luxury.

With the correct updated version of UT99 (all patches installed) and the correct nvidia driver, you can actually get a better result with the use of a GF4-ti4200 and the other faster GF4's. I did a comparison once, that I posted here on Vogons.

The images are gone, because I had them hosted on dropbox. Yet the text is there. It is THIS post.

brostenen wrote on 2020-06-16, 21:02:

With the correct updated version of UT99 (all patches installed) and the correct nvidia driver, you can actually get a better result with the use of a GF4-ti4200 and the other faster GF4's.

I believe you, as I had gotten myself a Leadtek GeForce 3 Ti200 a few years later and had a similar experience. What I meant was, at the time those games first came out, Voodoo3 was superior to the TNT2.

Later patches did improve D3D support, especially for UT and other games based on that engine. However, people still seem to prefer Glide for Diablo2, even to this day. Something about D3D having a slightly different look and/or some visual glitches.

ATi was the only one that upped their game enough to remain competitive, and they had a few stumbles along the way.

ATi had tight grip on OEM market, which helped a lot. And 3dfx were far too late for that party.

brostenen wrote on 2020-06-16, 20:52:

Yup. I know most of those things, and of course you use an S3 of good quality. Those three cards I mentioned, are all better sui […]
Show full quote

darry wrote on 2020-06-16, 00:26:

brostenen wrote on 2020-01-20, 22:15:

That would be more in the realm of Voodoo1. By 1999, it did not matter if you used V3 or TNT2 and as you still would use TNT2 an […]
Show full quote

That would be more in the realm of Voodoo1. By 1999, it did not matter if you used V3 or TNT2 and as you still would use TNT2 and V3 well into 2000, then you would also use DX7 for TNT2. Yes, M64 are bad.

Except.... You get the same out of V2-SLI than you get from V3-3000, and pairing V2-SLI up with one of the following, you get a way better Dos setup for 2D gaming.

- S3-Trio64v+
- S3-Virge325
- Cirrus Logic CL5446

Yes. Sure. If you have something like K6-II-500, K6-III-550 or P3-500/600 or something like those, then the best choice is still V3-3500. If you are only comparing V3 to TNT2. You still need to talk about were the card is used, as the card alone, can never speak in terms of what is the best solution. Hence I gave V2-SLI as the example.

Not sure I agree with the "way better Dos setup for 2D gaming" . According to both my personal experience and https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/ , other than Alien Trilogy in high colour and maybe the corner case of Tomb Raider with a PCX2, I don't see why the S3 and Cirrus based cards were significantly better than a Voodoo 3 . The Voodoo3 also had excellent VGA image quality in 2D (good RAMDAC and well designed analogue filtering), whereas the output quality of the S3 and CL cards varied between OEMs. Then there is the fact that, with Voodoo2, you still needed the crappy pass-through cable or a monitor with multiple VGA inputs . Then, there were the SLI related image issues. I had some at the time using two matched Voodoo2 cards and could never fully resolve them (gave up before I did). I'm not saying it's impossible to resolve them, just that it can be a hassle . Finally, there's the fact that a Voodoo2 SLI plus 2D card requires 3 PCI slots instead of one for a Voodoo 3.

Yup. I know most of those things, and of course you use an S3 of good quality. Those three cards I mentioned, are all better suited for 2D gfx in Dos, than any Voodoo cards. And of course you use high quality loopback cables, and if you happens to have mis matching V2's, then you use FasVoodoo 4.6 drivers. Issues solved, and you get a better overall machine for Dos games.

These things I mention, are kind of common knowledge here on Vogons. Just go and do a search, however it will be some job, to read through +10 years of posts.

The reason why those cards I mention, are better for Dos gaming, is that they are 100% compatible with Dos titles. Again. Use a card of good brand, as you get stuff like bad black levels on S3 cards. I recommend the Number9 version of Virge-325 for anything faster than Pentium-133/166. Voodoo3 for K6-II/III machines, because they are fastest and most compatible with those CPU's, and because you need more horsepowers for TNT2 and G400. Going for Pentium3-1000 and faster, I recommend something like TNT2 or GF2. As that CPU can deliver what the cards require.

My current main retro setup is a P3 1400Mhz with an FX 5900 (AGP) and a Voodoo 3 3000 and I have been using various flavour of S3 , CL and Trident cards and many others since the early nineties . I have also been lurking on Vogons for over a decade .
My point is not that that that the Voodoo 3 is necessarily THE BEST for any specific purpose (Glide, old VGA games compatibility, 2D image quality), but that the combination of strengths it does have make it a very compelling and practical choice .

You mention that CL and S3 cards are better compatibility wise, that may well be true, though, except for a things like lack of a dedicated CGA mode (not significant for my use), I don't find the Voodoo 3's VGA core to have significant issues with the games and demos that I have tried . The general consensus on Vogons, as far as I know, is that the Voodoo 3 VGA core is well regarded . That said, if there is a list of specific incompatibilities I may have missed, please point me towards it. Even if there is no list, I do not disagree that specifc incompatibilities must certainly exist . As an example, the Amnesia demo crashes on my Voodoo 3, but works fine on my FX 5900 . Nothing is 100% compatible with all VGA software and I, for one, will not be running after an ET4000 to play the Copper demo 100% accurately, for example. Nor will I be going back to a CRT (another point to consider if you want maximum compatibility with software that manipulates the VGA CRTC in peculiar ways) anytime soon .

As for my issue with Voodoo2 SLI, over 20 years ago, I was using matched Guillemot Voodoo 2 cards and still had issues, no matter what driver I tried . I then got a Voodoo3 2000 (at the time), that just worked without any issues with the games I was playing at the time (I was not playing ancient hard-coded Glide games that only work well on a Voodoo 1) . Things might well have improved for V2 SLI, since then, driver wise (though I still see the odd rant on Vogons), but I did not see the point in trying again as Voodoo2 SLI, does not have an advantage over Voodoo3 (Glide-wise) for my use case .

All that said, I hope you don't feel the need to convince me . I certainly don't feel the need to convince you . If it does happen, either way, and to whatever extent, thats fine too. Exchanging opinions and explaining their basis is one of the more interesting things on Vogons, IMHO . So if you do feel like you want talk more about VGA compatibility, please do . I am definitely open to learning something new on a subject that is interesting to me

Cheers!