VOGONS


Reply 460 of 619, by ragefury32

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Warlord wrote on 2021-04-04, 23:27:

my Toshiba 815em with XG works perfectly in every game I tried it on. It doesn't have sb-link, pretty sure DDMA is working though or the XG driver is magic.

Or it's not an ESS. I mentioned that the ESS Allegro does not work reliably with TDMA or whatever non-SBLink/non-DDMA setups on ICH southbridges, and the same behavior is observed on my n600c, and on a Dell Inspiron 8100.

Re: dell inspiron 8100 windows 98

Don't forget that Yamaha has that DSDMA TSR that allows sound to work on non-supported chips.

YMF744+DSDMA+DOS+P965(and other PCIe chipsets)=success

Reply 461 of 619, by ragefury32

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Horun wrote on 2021-04-04, 03:34:

Isn't "The quest for the perfect retro laptop" sort of a conundrum. There is no such thing as is there is no such thing as "The quest for the perfect retro PC" .
Just my opinion but the title is wrong as it is very dependent on person perspective.
That said I do enjoy all reading all the entries and many are of great value. Just have an issue with the title ;p

Well, the original topic was more like "the quest for the perfect retro laptop...as defined by keenmaster486"...not sure what he ended up with but he did mention that he picked up a ThinkPad 240 and was happy with it.

Reply 462 of 619, by ragefury32

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
cyclone3d wrote on 2021-04-05, 03:34:
Just took my SR17k apart to look at it. The codec chip is the AKM4543. […]
Show full quote
ragefury32 wrote on 2021-04-04, 23:13:
cyclone3d wrote on 2021-04-04, 21:48:
So... The laptop that stopped powering up last night was working again this morning. […]
Show full quote

So... The laptop that stopped powering up last night was working again this morning.

I tested my latest modded driver and it still doesn't output sound but it does make a click when the driver loads.

I decided to go looking for a specific YMF754 driver and actually found a full package with different .INF files for different codec chips. It also has instructions on what to do to make it work with the different codec chips.

It is basically the original 2019 vxd version from Yamaha but was released by a different company.

I am almost 100% sure I can get this version working. I just need to check what codec chips the VAIO laptops use with the YMF754.

I also ordered a spare motherboard which has a PIII 600, Neomagic 256XL+ and the YMF754. Not exactly sure what SR model it is from, but from the looks of it, the SR series all use the same exact form factor motherboard so i can put it in my other SR laptop that won't power up if I can't get it working.

Yeah, that’s the symptom of a failing AD3421 chip - your power circuitry will not fire up after a period of usage, but after a day or 2 it’ll come back to life. Unfortunate the chip will eventually degrade and the machine will require that chip to be replaced.

As for the codec I’ll need to take the SR9GK apart and see which chip it uses. Yeah, we should be able to get it working...it’s just a matter of making the right tweaks to it. I would also like to have the machine not report a bunch of unknown devices in Win98, though.

Just took my SR17k apart to look at it. The codec chip is the AKM4543.

So now I am going to try this driver and see how it works.

Fun thing about this full driver set is that it should work for all 744 and 754 solutions... mwahahaha.

According to the release notes, 4.12.01.2019 only supports 744 and 754.

I'm also wondering about the 4.07.1040 driver set as the release notes mention that it was changed from 4.06 to 4.07 when DX7 support was added... I'm not finding any info on exactly what the 4.12 drive set added over the 4.07 set.... maybe 4.07.1040 is the best vxd set for the other chipsets.

That's the same codec chip used by the Toshiba 2805-S402 (referenced on the Dynabook spec sheet) - maybe grab the latest VxD driver for that machine and modify to fit for the Sony Vaio SRs and C1s?

Reply 464 of 619, by Brute389

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
Warlord wrote on 2021-04-04, 23:27:

my Toshiba 815em with XG works perfectly in every game I tried it on. It doesn't have sb-link, pretty sure DDMA is working though or the XG driver is magic.

I actually have a gateway solo 9550, and it is a beast of a machine for windows 98 with the 1ghz tualatin and 32mb geforce 2 g0; however, the ess chip sounds terrible in DOS. It works, but it is very quiet and definitely not as good as the DS-XG's.

Reply 465 of 619, by cyclone3d

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
Warlord wrote on 2021-04-05, 05:14:

I put those drivers in that 2805-s402 thread I made. Re: Toshiba 2805 Yamaha XG Configuration.

Ok, cool. I've downloaded that now and will take a look when I get a chance.

On the plus side, I have the DOS sound test working on everything including the Native 16-bit sound which I hadn't been able to get to work before on the VAIO laptops.

Yamaha YMF modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG resource repository - updated November 27, 2018
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
AW744L II - YMF744 - AOpen Cobra Sound Card - Install SB-Link Header

Reply 466 of 619, by ragefury32

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Brute389 wrote on 2021-04-05, 05:18:
Warlord wrote on 2021-04-04, 23:27:

my Toshiba 815em with XG works perfectly in every game I tried it on. It doesn't have sb-link, pretty sure DDMA is working though or the XG driver is magic.

I actually have a gateway solo 9550, and it is a beast of a machine for windows 98 with the 1ghz tualatin and 32mb geforce 2 g0; however, the ess chip sounds terrible in DOS. It works, but it is very quiet and definitely not as good as the DS-XG's.

Did you run into any compatibility issues with DOS and certain games?
Does essaudio.com tell you which mode you are using while in DOS?
Does the Fn key combos for controlling audio volume or screen brightness function within DOS?

Last edited by ragefury32 on 2021-04-05, 21:30. Edited 2 times in total.

Reply 467 of 619, by ragefury32

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
dr_st wrote on 2021-04-04, 06:06:
Horun wrote on 2021-04-04, 03:34:

There is no such thing as is there is no such thing as "The quest for the perfect retro PC" .

Modern PC running DOSBox with SW MIDI synths?

*Anti-rotten-eggs defense systems activated*

Mister AO486 core in a pi-top chassis.

Reply 468 of 619, by keenmaster486

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
ragefury32 wrote on 2021-04-05, 05:01:
Horun wrote on 2021-04-04, 03:34:

Isn't "The quest for the perfect retro laptop" sort of a conundrum. There is no such thing as is there is no such thing as "The quest for the perfect retro PC" .
Just my opinion but the title is wrong as it is very dependent on person perspective.
That said I do enjoy all reading all the entries and many are of great value. Just have an issue with the title ;p

Well, the original topic was more like "the quest for the perfect retro laptop...as defined by keenmaster486"...not sure what he ended up with but he did mention that he picked up a ThinkPad 240 and was happy with it.

I like the 240. It’s not perfect though.

There is no absolutely perfect retro laptop. The original thread was more narrowly defined as perfect for my purposes.

I still haven’t found something that fits the bill without any deficiencies whatsoever, but the Thinkpad 365X comes close for me.

I’m currently on the lookout for a Micron Transport XKE. (edit: I take it back... I think it's the XPE that has the features I want)

Last edited by keenmaster486 on 2021-04-06, 16:53. Edited 1 time in total.

I flermmed the plootash just like you asked.
World's foremost 486 enjoyer.

Reply 469 of 619, by keenmaster486

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
ragefury32 wrote on 2021-04-05, 13:51:
dr_st wrote on 2021-04-04, 06:06:
Horun wrote on 2021-04-04, 03:34:

There is no such thing as is there is no such thing as "The quest for the perfect retro PC" .

Modern PC running DOSBox with SW MIDI synths?

*Anti-rotten-eggs defense systems activated*

Mister AO486 core in a pi-top chassis.

Well maybe but it’s not fast enough yet. Someday I hope to produce something like that

I flermmed the plootash just like you asked.
World's foremost 486 enjoyer.

Reply 470 of 619, by ragefury32

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
keenmaster486 wrote on 2021-04-06, 06:32:
ragefury32 wrote on 2021-04-05, 05:01:
Horun wrote on 2021-04-04, 03:34:

Isn't "The quest for the perfect retro laptop" sort of a conundrum. There is no such thing as is there is no such thing as "The quest for the perfect retro PC" .
Just my opinion but the title is wrong as it is very dependent on person perspective.
That said I do enjoy all reading all the entries and many are of great value. Just have an issue with the title ;p

Well, the original topic was more like "the quest for the perfect retro laptop...as defined by keenmaster486"...not sure what he ended up with but he did mention that he picked up a ThinkPad 240 and was happy with it.

I like the 240. It’s not perfect though.

Eh...Neomagic 128XD? Or something else?

Reply 471 of 619, by Warlord

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

I have a Micron XKE id be willing to part with if you pay shipping. One catch is that it has a damaaged LCD, and I think the speakers need replaced. Other than that its in fair cosmetic condition a bit dirty though. It works though. I got it free somwhere I went.

Last edited by Warlord on 2021-04-08, 17:07. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 472 of 619, by keenmaster486

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
ragefury32 wrote on 2021-04-08, 15:13:

Eh...Neomagic 128XD? Or something else?

Yeah, it has the Neomagic. Not ideal but it works

Warlord wrote on 2021-04-08, 17:00:

I have a Micron XKE id be willing to part with if you pay shipping. One catch is that it has a damaaged LCD, and I think the speakers need replaced. Other than that its in fair cosmetic condition a bit dirty though. It works though.

I think it's the XPE I'm looking for as it's the one with a Trident video chip rather than Neomagic, if I'm not mistaken

I flermmed the plootash just like you asked.
World's foremost 486 enjoyer.

Reply 474 of 619, by ragefury32

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Warlord wrote on 2021-04-08, 17:08:

good call neomagic is trash no offense to anyone that like them. which is the simgle reason the xke remains broken in storage here.

Name a single series of chip that has its 2D performance at its power budget and mass pricing during its heyday.

Reply 475 of 619, by Warlord

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
ragefury32 wrote on 2021-04-08, 22:15:

Name a single series of chip that has its 2D performance at its power budget and mass pricing during its heyday.

Well lets 1st address your comment on 2d performance. Now maybe my definition of performance is too high of a standard but its pretty much most things that you would want performance in 2d in you would like it to work?
https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/

2nd to address your comment on its power budget. Key work here shouldn't be power but "budget" "mass pricing" which is synonymous with many other words but I'll leave it there. But let me sum it up for you theres a reason usually that something is cheap.

Red herrings aside Cirrus Logic chips come in mind as they were in plenty of low end hardware at the time and in laptops and don't have the same problems with "2d performance" Trident as well S3 made it into many laptops and integrated solutions and they also don't have the same kinda problems. IBM put a lot of rage chips in laptops back then again don't have as many problems and even will run wolf3d which apparently magicgraphs crash on. magic graph is so bad I would take a ATI rage over it anyday and I'm not in the market for a rage chip.

Lastly the notebook I was referring too the XKE isn't some cheap laptop at its time it was pretty much the most expensive thing you could buy so there would be no reason to put a crappy magic graph in it.

Reply 476 of 619, by Brute389

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie
ragefury32 wrote on 2021-04-05, 13:48:
Did you run into any compatibility issues with DOS and certain games? Does essaudio.com tell you which mode you are using whil […]
Show full quote
Brute389 wrote on 2021-04-05, 05:18:
Warlord wrote on 2021-04-04, 23:27:

my Toshiba 815em with XG works perfectly in every game I tried it on. It doesn't have sb-link, pretty sure DDMA is working though or the XG driver is magic.

I actually have a gateway solo 9550, and it is a beast of a machine for windows 98 with the 1ghz tualatin and 32mb geforce 2 g0; however, the ess chip sounds terrible in DOS. It works, but it is very quiet and definitely not as good as the DS-XG's.

Did you run into any compatibility issues with DOS and certain games?
Does essaudio.com tell you which mode you are using while in DOS?
Does the Fn key combos for controlling audio volume or screen brightness function within DOS?

Sorry for the late reply, I do have compatiblity issues with a couple of games I tried. Duke3dAE will play music back fine; however, it gives me an interrupt error when trying to sample fx. For doom, it fails to run, and gives me a large text full of errors. In Prince of Persia, I had no issues with the music or sound fx.
Also, I included a picture of what my essaudio reports back to me.
Lastly, my volume keys are tied to special dedicated keys at the top of the keyboard, and I have not been able to get them to work in DOS. Shame really as the sound is very quiet even with volume options in game settings.

Attachments

  • Essaudio.jpg
    Filename
    Essaudio.jpg
    File size
    411.58 KiB
    Views
    189 views
    File license
    Public domain

Reply 477 of 619, by ragefury32

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Warlord wrote on 2021-04-08, 22:41:
Well lets 1st address your comment on 2d performance. Now maybe my definition of performance is too high of a standard but its […]
Show full quote
ragefury32 wrote on 2021-04-08, 22:15:

Name a single series of chip that has its 2D performance at its power budget and mass pricing during its heyday.

Well lets 1st address your comment on 2d performance. Now maybe my definition of performance is too high of a standard but its pretty much most things that you would want performance in 2d in you would like it to work?
https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/

2nd to address your comment on its power budget. Key work here shouldn't be power but "budget" "mass pricing" which is synonymous with many other words but I'll leave it there. But let me sum it up for you theres a reason usually that something is cheap.

Red herrings aside Cirrus Logic chips come in mind as they were in plenty of low end hardware at the time and in laptops and don't have the same problems with "2d performance" Trident as well S3 made it into many laptops and integrated solutions and they also don't have the same kinda problems. IBM put a lot of rage chips in laptops back then again don't have as many problems and even will run wolf3d which apparently magicgraphs crash on. magic graph is so bad I would take a ATI rage over it anyday and I'm not in the market for a rage chip.

Lastly the notebook I was referring too the XKE isn't some cheap laptop at its time it was pretty much the most expensive thing you could buy so there would be no reason to put a crappy magic graph in it.

First of all, the mactar.hu DOS test list is not about performance but compatibility. You can have great compatibility but terrible performance, like what the Virge series showed in Direct3D 3. Furthermore, its also compatibility for a specific set of games - if you play Commander Keen, great, it's helpful. Or if you watch the warez greetz for prehistorik 2 or play that one Shareware Mario demo? Terrific. Otherwise it's only there to look at certain edge cases, or what hardware elitists use to beat each other over the head over silly minutiae. I mean, if you look at the graphs the Matrox are absolutely terrible for Commander Keen, the warez banners for Prehistorik 2 and Quake. Are you going to toss out a perfectly capable G400 simply because of this?

Second of all, there's only 1 entry for Chips and Technology (65554) and one for Neomagic, which is a Neomagic 256AV. There are 3 families from the PCI based NM2097/NM2160c (Gen 1), the AGP NM2200/2300 series (Gen 2), and the 2380 (Gen 3 with a very rudimentary 3D accelerator). Not all of them behave the same, and not all of them have the same DOS compatibility problems. Hell, I have the Mario Shareware in the 240 and I don't think the slow scroll is an issue in that game. Prehistorik 2 the game itself (not the warez greetz banner, which I skip over anyways) runs just fine, and Commander Keen, well, I don't play that much of it to let it bother me. It's just not my genre.

I am not even sure what you are talking about when you said that Wolf3D does not work on the MagicGraph - I have it running just fine in every level of the game. Hell, there are video footage of a Thinkpad 240 with the 128XD running various retro games with no issues. Duke3D, Quake, Doom, etc. You can probably ask someone here with a Latitude XPi how their retro games ran - they are on the original 128 (NM2097).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqmL0dJVfPE

I played Quake 2 + UT'99 on software mode, full screen in Win98, and it worked just fine. For regular VGA games like Duke Nukem 3D, Quake, Wing Commander 4, or TIE fighter, no issues there as well. So it sucks with certain games. So stop playing those games and play other games.

Third of all, the entire design of the laptop is not determinant on how well it performs in DOS gaming. It's based on providing a well rounded product within the bounds of a bill of material. The engineers are given a budget, a target size/dimension, a performance objective and a price target, and its their job to provide the most that they can given their limitations and they are not targeting it to run DOS well. It'll need to run Windows 95/98/2000 well since that's what the market had in mind.

Just how much do you think is a mobile GPU going to cost a vendor back in 96/97? In a production run of 10,000 chips, it's only going to cost roughly 35-50 USD per chip going into a laptop retailing north of 3k. When Neomagic first announced the NM2097 back in mid'95 they were mentioning that the chips will sell at 75 per unit. By 1997 they price would've dropped significantly, and considering that the Neomagic GPUs integrate both the GPU and the VRAM, it has a bit of an advantage when it was first launched since the engineers will not have to source separate VRAM chips (at least a few bucks in quantities of over 10,000) and the required interconnects.

https://techmonitor.ai/techonology/neomagic_l … cs_accelerators

Do you know what power budgeting means? It's not a red herring because it's important for laptops. The machine needs to consume only a certain amount of power within a certain runtime which has direct implications on how big the machine needs to be. It also determines how much battery it needs to carry to have a certain runtime. Sure, if your idea of a laptop is a 10 pound waffle iron that's always connected to an outlet and has multiple fans pushing air through the internals, sure, it doesn't matter. On most of those machines with the fast GPUs (like this Thinkpad T42p next to me) their runtimes are measured in minutes even when new . But if your machine is designed as a mobile warrior like the Thinkpad 600s, you want it to use as little power as possible so you can stretch that battery out, you want it to be reasonably light and small, and you want it to generate as little heat as possible so you don't need fans and heat pipes to deal with it - chances are, you are working on documents/spreadsheets or on an IDE coding up a storm. That's why it had a Neomagic. Why were the Neomagic chips were popular? Because they were highly integrated (where the VRAM is packaged on-die with the GPU), you have less traces/real estate on the laptop's motherboard (not the case with the Tridents, the C&Ts and the S3 Auroras). You don't need dedicated extra circuitry to run the external VRAM - I remember seeing specsheets that quote the power usage of a Neomagic at around 750 milliwatts worst case scenario, which is pretty good since it's VRAM+ASIC at the same time. To put it into perspective, a Celeron 300A mobile is around 8 when maxed out. When Neomagic owned 43% of the mobile graphics market, it didn't need to support 3D, and for a chip designed to run Win32 BitBLT, it was good enough.

Fourth of all, that Micro XKE's pricing is deceptive - if we are to believe the Micron Ad on page 1 of Byte Magazine's ad for the XKE, we'll see that:
https://archive.org/details/ByteNovember11199 … w=theater&q=XKE

It's ~5949, which comes with a 5 year warranty (around 250-300 upgraded from a 3 year warranty), and comes with Dragon Naturally Speaking (~150 to 200) and Office 97 Business (closer to 475 back then). So knock it down about 8-900, and it's closer to the Armada 7730DMT in terms of pricing (which has a 2MB S3 Aurora and goes for 4400).
If you take the Vaio PCG-707G (which is much slimmer and lighter and listed at 4500), add a 3 year warranty, it'll be closer to the original listing price of the Micron (5300). That's a Neomagic. If you wait 3 months for the first Dell Latitude CP to hit the market in Feb 1998, spec it out with a 13" LCD display (XT) and a 233MMX (or even an early Dixon P2 mobile), I can guarantee that you'll be paying north of 4300. And I bet there are computer magazine ads on archive.org that will back the assertion.

Also, the Neomagic (on the Versa 7060, the Transport XKE and the Vaio) has MPEG playback acceleration (YUV12 overlay/colorspace conversion) in a single chip. Both the Trident Cyber9397 (on the Gateway Solo 9100XL) and the S3 Aurora (Armada 7730DMT) requires external VRAM and real estate. That stuff takes up more power and costs money and board real estate, and in terms of Win32 acceleration, they are roughly comparable. So why wouldn't Micron use it on their design?

Last edited by ragefury32 on 2021-04-09, 05:16. Edited 3 times in total.

Reply 478 of 619, by ragefury32

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Brute389 wrote on 2021-04-09, 02:38:
Sorry for the late reply, I do have compatiblity issues with a couple of games I tried. Duke3dAE will play music back fine; howe […]
Show full quote
ragefury32 wrote on 2021-04-05, 13:48:
Did you run into any compatibility issues with DOS and certain games? Does essaudio.com tell you which mode you are using whil […]
Show full quote
Brute389 wrote on 2021-04-05, 05:18:

I actually have a gateway solo 9550, and it is a beast of a machine for windows 98 with the 1ghz tualatin and 32mb geforce 2 g0; however, the ess chip sounds terrible in DOS. It works, but it is very quiet and definitely not as good as the DS-XG's.

Did you run into any compatibility issues with DOS and certain games?
Does essaudio.com tell you which mode you are using while in DOS?
Does the Fn key combos for controlling audio volume or screen brightness function within DOS?

Sorry for the late reply, I do have compatiblity issues with a couple of games I tried. Duke3dAE will play music back fine; however, it gives me an interrupt error when trying to sample fx. For doom, it fails to run, and gives me a large text full of errors. In Prince of Persia, I had no issues with the music or sound fx.
Also, I included a picture of what my essaudio reports back to me.
Lastly, my volume keys are tied to special dedicated keys at the top of the keyboard, and I have not been able to get them to work in DOS. Shame really as the sound is very quiet even with volume options in game settings.

The engineers at Gateway actually wired the PC-PCI up on the Solo 9550? Hmmm...either essaudio.com is seeing something else or PC-PCI is not working correctly.
You are kind of at the same place as my n600c - FM works (only) for some of my apps like TIE Fighter, Prince of Persia works okay, but mine reports the mode as TDMA (Transparent DMA mode) instead of PC-PCI.

Reply 479 of 619, by Warlord

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
ragefury32 wrote on 2021-04-09, 04:06:

Second of all, there's only 1 entry for Chips and Technology (65554) and one for Neomagic, which is a Neomagic 256AV. That's a gen2 Neomagic GPU. There are 3 families from the PCI based NM2097/NM2160c (Gen 1), the AGP NM2200/2300 series (Gen 2), and the 2380 (Gen 3 with a very rudimentary 3D accelerator that they were late to the market in and caused Neomagic's exit from the marketplace). Not all of them behave the same, and not all of them have the same DOS compatibility problems. Hell, I have the Mario Shareware in the 240 and I don't think the slow scroll is an issue in that game. Prehistorik 2 the game itself (not the warez greetz banner, which I skip over anyways) runs just fine, and Commander Keen, well, I don't play that much of it to let it bother me. It's just not my genre.

Ok you are entitled to your opinions. I get that not all chips are the same. Perhaps the very 1st one the 128 not the worst and they progressively got worst becasue the direction of the company was not 2d acceleration it was GUI acceleration under windows. Gona himself said "I have tested NeoMagic MagicMedia256AV with DOS games and it has a poor compatibility, actually NeoMagic MagicMedia256AV one of the worst." It doesn't matter how much windows 2d GUI acceleration something has on paper or in a vacuum chamber if it sucks at DOS gaming since this thread is about the perfect retro laptop to play games on. You mention they died becasue of intel giving integrated video away for free, but Id like to add Intels 740 and later the integrated Video was actually good? compared to magic graph so its more than just giving it away for free.