Hoof wrote on 2024-11-21, 18:31:

Gah don’t know why I thought it was a Belkin. It’s a Linksys KVM2KIT. Just checked the label. I got one about 20 years ago and another last year when I needed another KVM (off of ebay). Both have worked great with my older PCs.

Ah ok, I just picked up a Belkin F1DS104T but haven't had a chance to test it out yet. I use a pair of HP IP KVM for the bulk of my gear but set up a dedicated area for focused retro gaming that has an E8400 XP machine and a MMX 166 win95.

I think I need help.... 7 PCs is no longer enough. What has this vogons community done to me? Lol.

I have now bought a 16 port Belkin KVM. Still only PS/2 + VGA. I think I will use just use a wireless USB mouse on any PCs that need lower lag input.

I think I can fit in this cupboard 8 PCs plus the Pocket 8086 (and Pocket 386 if I chose to get it- though right now I think the Pseudo 386 made from Pentium MMX will suffice). Above the cupboard is where my 12-bay NAS PC will be so will be good to have the ability to switch to that on KVM to troubleshoot it if required. Then just outside of this cupboard there is an area where I can house one small tower PC, and a worktop where I could put a test bench.

Here is a couple of photos of the room before I started building the cupboard:

This is after I removed plasterboard and top from area above the stairs. I still need to build storage in it.

8 PC cases in the cupboard, as a test. 5 of them are empty cases currently.

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-21, 02:28:

Best part of it IMO is it can use an 8088, 8086, V20/V30 all the way up to 10Mhz. AFAIK its the only XT class computer to ever support both the 8 bit and 16 bit bus cpus in the same socket. I used mine to compare the 8088 to the 8086 at 4.77Mhz, its about a 30% gain in performance, at least on benchmarks. A 4.77Mhz 8088 to a 10Mhz V30 is a perf swing of 3-4x, a nice range IMO. Nifty device, IMO

I have just ordered an NEC V30 to go with it (D70116D-10) and an Intel 8088. Will be interesting to try them... I still will have a gap around 286 performance. But, as I said before, I am not sure how many games on that I would want to play. The 8086 at least has the appeal of learning assembly on one of Intel's first PC processors. I will have to ponder more on whether to get a 286.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2024-11-22, 10:56:

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-21, 02:28:

Best part of it IMO is it can use an 8088, 8086, V20/V30 all the way up to 10Mhz. AFAIK its the only XT class computer to ever support both the 8 bit and 16 bit bus cpus in the same socket. I used mine to compare the 8088 to the 8086 at 4.77Mhz, its about a 30% gain in performance, at least on benchmarks. A 4.77Mhz 8088 to a 10Mhz V30 is a perf swing of 3-4x, a nice range IMO. Nifty device, IMO

I have just ordered an NEC V30 to go with it (D70116D-10) and an Intel 8088. Will be interesting to try them... I still will have a gap around 286 performance. But, as I said before, I am not sure how many games on that I would want to play. The 8086 at least has the appeal of learning assembly on one of Intel's first PC processors. I will have to ponder more on whether to get a 286.

As far I'm considered, I can only say that I truely owe the XT and Turbo XT platform something.
Because, it made me appreciate my old 286 PC I had as kid even more.

Working with XTs changed my perception of time (slowness), also.
Here, you can basically watch the silicon being at work in real-time.
It's something you can't get with a ZX81 or any other home computer.

My main "lab" PC in the ham shack is a Siemens Nixdorf 8810 M35 with both Hercules and CGA. I use it for my radio hobby, too.
Running, say, IC-Database is an experience on its own. A database search for a solid-state component can take about 6:30 minutes.

With an MFM/RLL HDD installed, it's really an experience that's special.
It makes you understand these old "let's make some coffee while PC is working" comments that you always thought were a joke.

And then there's the V20/V30 processor. It has new 80186/80286 instructions and an 8080 emulation mode.

That emulation mode is interesting, because it's a special kind of emulation.
In this mode, the V20/V30 does map the 8080 instructions to the corresponding 8086 instructions.

This works, because the 8086 architecture was being based on real 8080. The reason for this is assembler compatibility.
The 8080 and 8086 are source compatible, ASM code can be ported in both directions.

That's also the reason the NEV V20/V30 don't support Z80 instructions, there are no corresponding counterparts to them in i8086.
So no CP/M-80/Turbo Pascal 3 fun for us.

What's interesting, though - since the V20/V30 are basically just translating mnemonics here: Does the 8080 emulation mode inherit all 8080 limits?
How about address range? Can 8080 emulation mode just access 64KB of memory or whole 1MB range?
I haven't checked yet. But I find this question to be interesting.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2024-11-22, 10:56:

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-21, 02:28:

Best part of it IMO is it can use an 8088, 8086, V20/V30 all the way up to 10Mhz. AFAIK its the only XT class computer to ever support both the 8 bit and 16 bit bus cpus in the same socket. I used mine to compare the 8088 to the 8086 at 4.77Mhz, its about a 30% gain in performance, at least on benchmarks. A 4.77Mhz 8088 to a 10Mhz V30 is a perf swing of 3-4x, a nice range IMO. Nifty device, IMO

I have just ordered an NEC V30 to go with it (D70116D-10) and an Intel 8088. Will be interesting to try them... I still will have a gap around 286 performance. But, as I said before, I am not sure how many games on that I would want to play. The 8086 at least has the appeal of learning assembly on one of Intel's first PC processors. I will have to ponder more on whether to get a 286.

Can you cancel your V30 order? Mine came with a V30, the 8086 in it currently came out of the PS/2. I needed the V30 in the PS/2 to use an ISA VGA card whose bios uses 286 instructions that don’t exist on the 8086 but do on the V30. I was also lucky the PS/2 8086 was capable of running fine at 10Mhz.

For the 8088, check it’s speed rating. Mine is an older model and isn’t stable at 10mhz. The Pocket 8086 can be switched via hotkey to 4.77Mhz and remember that setting, but ya gotta do that with a 10Mhz capable cpu first, then swap cpus.

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-23, 00:55:

Can you cancel your V30 order? Mine came with a V30, the 8086 in it currently came out of the PS/2. I needed the V30 in the PS/2 to use an ISA VGA card whose bios uses 286 instructions that don’t exist on the 8086 but do on the V30. I was also lucky the PS/2 8086 was capable of running fine at 10Mhz.

For the 8088, check it’s speed rating. Mine is an older model and isn’t stable at 10mhz. The Pocket 8086 can be switched via hotkey to 4.77Mhz and remember that setting, but ya gotta do that with a 10Mhz capable cpu first, then swap cpus.

No, can't cancel it, as it has shipped. I can always re-sell it if not needed. I didn't think until afterwards that perhaps I should have bought a 8088-2 that's rated for 8Mhz rather than the standard 4 77mhz 8088. Presumably that's more likely to be stable at 10Mhz. Luckily the 8088 was really cheap. £5.50 including postage. The v30 wasn't too bad either. £20 delivered for two of them.

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-23, 00:55:

Can you cancel your V30 order? Mine came with a V30, the 8086 in it currently came out of the PS/2. I needed the V30 in the PS/2 to use an ISA VGA card whose bios uses 286 instructions that don’t exist on the 8086 but do on the V30. I was also lucky the PS/2 8086 was capable of running fine at 10Mhz.

Well it came. It has the NEC V30 in it. So I guess I will either have to sell the ones I ordered, or just keep for spares.

The Pocket 8086 that I just received seems able to perform about the same as an IBM Model 30 286 with the NEC V30 CPU @10MHz that it came with. This is according to TopBench. Not sure how useful that is in comparison to gaming performance, but it seemed able to Play Prehistorik and Titus the Fox that came on the device..

At 4.77Mhz the V30 is seemingly twice as fast as an IBM 5150:

I have an 8088 CPU on the way to try in it, to see how slow it will go.

OK. So I was watching an ebay auction on an IBM PS/2 30 286 with monitor. It went for £340 including delivery. That's including monochrome CRT. That's too much money for me, but congrats to whoever bought it. I think I like the idea of having one for nostalgia, rather than needing one for the games I want to play.

I think the true time range of games I will play is more like 1990-2010. Earlier games will be the exception and will probably have to play those in DOSBox (Unless the Pocket 8086 can play them).

I think I will tweak my plans so I have a similar system to the TNT2 one, but have it with a Voodoo 3500. That way I will have systems with Voodoo 1, 2 and 3. I think beyond that Direct3D took over so I am better off with Geforce.

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-23, 00:55:

AFAIK its the only XT class computer to ever support both the 8 bit and 16 bit bus cpus in the same socket.

You are right. That's very cool. Makes it a very flexible machine.

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-23, 00:55:

I used mine to compare the 8088 to the 8086 at 4.77Mhz, its about a 30% gain in performance, at least on benchmarks. A 4.77Mhz 8088 to a 10Mhz V30 is a perf swing of 3-4x, a nice range IMO. Nifty device, IMO

Yes, it has a nice range of possibilities. With a V30 it can even run some 286 games, but at lower framerate.

Hoof wrote on 2024-11-23, 00:55:

Mine came with a V30, the 8086 in it currently came out of the PS/2. I needed the V30 in the PS/2 to use an ISA VGA card whose bios uses 286 instructions that don’t exist on the 8086 but do on the V30. I was also lucky the PS/2 8086 was capable of running fine at 10Mhz.

For the 8088, check it’s speed rating. Mine is an older model and isn’t stable at 10mhz. The Pocket 8086 can be switched via hotkey to 4.77Mhz and remember that setting, but ya gotta do that with a 10Mhz capable cpu first, then swap cpus.

The NEC V30 that came in mine was a plastic package. The two that I bought (before knowing this laptop came with V30) are ceramic. So presumably handle heat better.

The 8088 that I just put in doesn't run stable at 10Mhz. Not surprising I guess. I am happy to leave it at 4.77Mhz anyway. I will use it to experiment with Assembly programming. It will take a lot less space than an original IBM or even a new NuXT system but should have similar performance. Cheaper too.

Ok. Well an update. I've replaced my 8 port KVM with the 16 port one. It's a Belkin Pro3. It works well with the Pocket 8086, so it's a nice addition that takes barely any additional space. This new KVM means that I will now be able to plug in my NAS to it, so will be able to diagnose issues locally if required. It also means that I now will have 6 ports free. So, given that, I'm between two motherboards for a Voodoo 3500 system. Both are Micro ATX.

One is Socket 370, but has no ISA slots, which means I won't be able to add an ISA Sound card for DOS. But, it has a 933Mhz processor, so should be plenty for the Vodooo3.

The other is Slot 1. It has one ISA slot, so could support DOS better. But I only have a 700Mhz processor for it. That's still a better processor than original reviews of the Voodoo 3 used. So I guess it's still a good match.

Which would you choose? I guess I already have several PCs that have ISA sound cards, so maybe this one should be just Windows only?

Incidentally, I think there may be less input lag on this KVM compared to the other. Will have to play more to see if I'm happy with it in Windows games. But in Quake 1 I noticed no lag at all.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2024-12-17, 12:41:

Ok. Well an update. I've replaced my 8 port KVM with the 16 port one. It's a Belkin Pro3. It works well with the Pocket 8086, […]
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Ok. Well an update. I've replaced my 8 port KVM with the 16 port one. It's a Belkin Pro3. It works well with the Pocket 8086, so it's a nice addition that takes barely any additional space. This new KVM means that I will now be able to plug in my NAS to it, so will be able to diagnose issues locally if required. It also means that I now will have 6 ports free. So, given that, I'm between two motherboards for a Voodoo 3500 system. Both are Micro ATX.

One is Socket 370, but has no ISA slots, which means I won't be able to add an ISA Sound card for DOS. But, it has a 933Mhz processor, so should be plenty for the Vodooo3.

The other is Slot 1. It has one ISA slot, so could support DOS better. But I only have a 700Mhz processor for it. That's still a better processor than original reviews of the Voodoo 3 used. So I guess it's still a good match.

Which would you choose? I guess I already have several PCs that have ISA sound cards, so maybe this one should be just Windows only?

Incidentally, I think there may be less input lag on this KVM compared to the other. Will have to play more to see if I'm happy with it in Windows games. But in Quake 1 I noticed no lag at all.

What chipsets to the boards have?
If the choice was between Intel and Via, I'd chose the Intel unless you want the added challenge of the Via 4-1 drivers.
If the choice is between a 400BX and an 815, I could make a good case for either. Since you have other ISA machines, ISA isn't that important. I'd pick the one that's got more pleasing BIOS.

douglar wrote on 2024-12-17, 13:44:

What chipsets to the boards have?
If the choice was between Intel and Via, I'd chose the Intel unless you want the added challenge of the Via 4-1 drivers.
If the choice is between a 400BX and an 815, I could make a good case for either. Since you have other ISA machines, ISA isn't that important. I'd pick the one that's got more pleasing BIOS.

440BX and branded Asus. The other is Compaq with 815 Chipset.

Oh something you might come across in 8088 CPUs, is that the clock requirement isn't just a frequency, it's a pulse shape. The mark space ratio is asymmetric and it needs "particular" rise and fall times. This often means that a "10Mhz" part will only do 8Mhz on a 50/50 squarewave clock. I do not know how precisely the Pocket or book machines tailor their clocks to the demands of these CPU, but in general I'd recommend going 20-30% above the speed grade you want to run at when upgrading random 8088 machines just to be sure.

BitWrangler wrote on 2024-12-17, 14:41:

Oh something you might come across in 8088 CPUs, is that the clock requirement isn't just a frequency, it's a pulse shape. The mark space ratio is asymmetric and it needs "particular" rise and fall times. This often means that a "10Mhz" part will only do 8Mhz on a 50/50 squarewave clock. I do not know how precisely the Pocket or book machines tailor their clocks to the demands of these CPU, but in general I'd recommend going 20-30% above the speed grade you want to run at when upgrading random 8088 machines just to be sure.

Timings. That reminds me of the NEC V20.
"The chip was designed for a clock duty cycle of 50%, compared to the 33% duty cycle used by the 8088."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEC_V20

Strictly speaking, the NECs thus do run a bit out of spec on 8088 motherboards.

However, some boards like the Juko Turbo XT have a jumper to select between V20 and 8088.
These Turbo XT boards might be able to run the V20 with the expected timings.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2024-12-17, 14:03:

440BX and branded Asus. The other is Compaq with 815 Chipset.

Since you are just using a Voodoo 3 card, you don't need the AGP Universal Slot. The ISA, extra DIMM slot, and the ATI graphics are all nice bonuses on the Asus. The Slot 1 board is more period correct for a Voodoo 3 build, because gamers were more excited about Geforce & Radeon graphics when the Socket 370 PIII 933 came out in the summer of 2000.

Pretty sure Compaq stopped requiring that annoying 6MB BIOS Setup partition on the hard drive with their socket 370 boards, yes? Even so, I bet the Asus has a much much nicer, full featured, power users BIOS while the Compaq BIOS is likely odd, unintuitive, highly restrictive, and possibly downright unpleasant.

douglar wrote on 2024-12-17, 15:50:

Since you are just using a Voodoo 3 card, you don't need the AGP Universal Slot. The ISA, extra DIMM slot, and the ATI graphics are all nice bonuses on the Asus. The Slot 1 board is more period correct for a Voodoo 3 build, because gamers were more excited about Geforce & Radeon graphics when the Socket 370 PIII 933 came out in the summer of 2000.

The Voodoo 3500 that I have is AGP, so I will need the slot for that. Interestingly this motherboard has a jumper to enable/disable the onboard AMD graphics (and sound). So, there is the potential to switch between the two very easily. It also has an SB-Link connector to give PCI sound cards that support it better DOS compatibility.

douglar wrote on 2024-12-17, 15:50:

Pretty sure Compaq stopped requiring that annoying 6MB BIOS Setup partition on the hard drive with their socket 370 boards, yes? Even so, I bet the Asus has a much much nicer, full featured, power users BIOS while the Compaq BIOS is likely odd, unintuitive, highly restrictive, and possibly downright unpleasant.

I don't recall what the BIOS was like, as it's been in storage for a while. But I'm pretty sure there were no odd requirements with regards to partitions. But I'm sure it would be more locked down than the Asus.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2024-12-17, 16:11:

The Voodoo 3500 that I have is AGP, so I will need the slot for that. Interestingly this motherboard has a jumper to enable/disable the onboard AMD graphics (and sound). So, there is the potential to switch between the two very easily. It also has an SB-Link connector to give PCI sound cards that support it better DOS compatibility.

There are different AGP slots. Your BX board has a 3.3V AGP, your Socket 370 board has an AGP universal slot. The Voodoo card should work in either, but it was designed for 3.3V AGP.

This is my latest plan for machines to include:

DOS 6.22/ Win3.0 (1981-1990) -Psuedo XT / Turbo XT
8088 @4.77 or 10Mhz
640k RAM
Trident VGA Graphics
OPL3 Sound
Pocket 8086 Laptop

DOS 6.22/ Win3.11 (1990-1993) - Psuedo 386/25mhz-486/25mhz
(L2 Cache disabled. SETMUL to add further scaling options)
Pentium MMX – 166Mhz @100Mhz
8mb EDO RAM
ISA Trident 8900C 512mb
Sound Blaster Pro 2.0
Micro ATX Desktop PC

DOS 7 / Early Win95 (1993-1996)
(Can slow to the speed of a 486 by disabling caches and using SETMUL)
Pentium MMX – 200-300Mhz (Jan 1997) with Front panel switch to control FSB between 66Mhz and 100Mhz
64Mb PC100 SDRAM
S3 Virge 2mb (1996) + Voodoo 1 4mb (Oct 1996)
Soundblaster 16 CT2230 and Diamond Monster Wavetable 2Mb
Horizontal ATX Desktop PC (OPUS)

DOS 7 / Late Win95 (1996-1998)
Pentium II – 300Mhz (May 1997)
64Mb PC100 SDRAM
AGP Riva 128 4mb (April 1997) + Voodoo 2 (Feb 1998)
Sound Blaster 16 CT2290 + Dream Blaster X2 Wavetable
Horizontal Desktop PC (Gateway)

DOS 7 / Early Win98 (1997-1999)
Slot 1 Pentium III – 550Mhz (Apr 1998)
128Mb PC100 RAM
TNT 2 (Oct 1999) + Voodoo 2 SLI (Feb 1998)
Aureal Vortex 2
Horizontal ATX Desktop PC (Viglen)

DOS / Late Win98 EAX 3DFX (1998-2000)
Slot 1 Pentium III @700Mhz (Oct 1999)
256Mb PC100 RAM
Voodoo 3500 (April 1999)
Soundblaster Live
Micro ATX Tower

DOS / Late Win98 A3D nVidia (1999-2001)
Socket 370 Pentium III – 1000Mhz (March 2000)
256Mb PC133 RAM
Geforce 2 GTS 32Mb (April 2000)
Sound Blaster 32 CT3670 (in DOS only) + Aureal Vortex 2 (In Windows Only)
Large Tower ATX Desktop PC

High End Win98 (2001-2003) / Very Early XP (2001-2003)
Pentium 4 – 3.4Ghz Cedarmill (Jan 2006)
512mb DDR RAM
Geforce 4600 (Feb 2002)
Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS
Micro ATX Desktop PC

Early WinXP (2001-2005)
Core 2 Duo E6600 (Jul 2006)
2Gb DDR RAM
Geforce 6800 128Mb (April 2004)
Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS
Micro ATX Desktop PC

Late WinXP (2005-2010), Windows Vista
4Gb DDR2 RAM
Core 2 Quad QX9650 @3.8Ghz (Nov 2007)
2x Geforce 8800 GTS 512 in SLI (Dec 2007)
Auzentech Prelude 7.1 Sound Blaster X-FI
Large Tower ATX Desktop PC

On the last one I am considering whether to use a Geforce GTX 285 1Gb instead of the SLI setup. It is Tesla 2 architecture (Dec 2009) rather than Tesla 1. If I use a single card, I may opt for my Asus P5Q3 Deluxe motherboard with DDR3 instead of the nVidia nForce 780i. That should hopefully improve CPU performance slightly, as I suspect it may bottleneck the GTX 285.

RetroPCCupboard wrote on 2024-12-17, 23:16:

High End Win98 (2001-2003) / Very Early XP (2001-2003) Pentium 4 – 3.4Ghz Cedarmill (Jan 2006) 512mb DDR RAM Geforce 4600 (Feb 2 […]
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High End Win98 (2001-2003) / Very Early XP (2001-2003)
Pentium 4 – 3.4Ghz Cedarmill (Jan 2006)
512mb DDR RAM
Geforce 4600 (Feb 2002)
Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS
Micro ATX Desktop PC

Possibly replace the GeForce 4 with a Radeon X800 series card in this system. That would allow you to fully max out Win9x games at 1600x1200 with 4xAA and 16xAF. The missing table fog and paletted textures legacy features won't matter since you already have a bunch of Voodoo systems and a GeForce 2 to take care of that.

Alternatively, go for a GeForce FX 5900 Ultra. It isn't as powerful as the Radeon X800, so you may not be able to fully max out everything, but it still supports the aforementioned legacy features and can run the original Splinter Cell with Shadow Buffers enabled. See this video by Phil for more details on the latter.

Early WinXP (2001-2005) Core 2 Duo E6600 (Jul 2006) 2Gb DDR RAM Geforce 6800 128Mb (April 2004) Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS Micro […]
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Early WinXP (2001-2005)
Core 2 Duo E6600 (Jul 2006)
2Gb DDR RAM
Geforce 6800 128Mb (April 2004)
Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS
Micro ATX Desktop PC

Maybe go for a GeForce 7900 GTX here. It's one of the last DirectX 9.0c only cards, before Nvidia started using unified shaders. This is relevant for a few games like Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow which have problems on newer cards and later drivers. As a bonus, the GeForce 7 series is the last offering from Nvidia that still supports 16-bit dithering. This can be nice if you decide to play some older 16-bit color only games like Thief 2 on that system.

I'd also consider using a single core CPU, as certain games from this transitional period have issues with multi-core systems. This can be solved by either setting affinity in Task Manager, using a utility like RunFirst or possibly even by disabling the extra cores in the BIOS, if the option exists. But sometimes, it's just easier not to worry about that stuff. Also, maybe go for a PCI based X-Fi card here, since you already have an Audigy 2 ZS in another system.