First of all, why do you require a AWE32 proprietary wavetable if you got the option to use a DX60XG clone?

For the ESS: Some of these old ESS behave the way that reconfiguring them to ressources that does not resemble the default values means just that they hear on the additional ressources too (especially IRQ). So while you think you switched the IRQ, the card just added another one, effectivly sitting on both. This feature is not just an ESS problem, but rather common with the early ISA-PnP (or semi-PnP) cards. In the end this means that the card is run best at default values as you don't free any ressources by reconfiguring it.

If you want to use an AWE I would prefer an AWE32 with 2x4MB SIMM vs. the AWE64 gold. The only reliable general midi emulation for the AWE runs under win9x anyway, so instead picking to a 2 MB ROM SF with proprietary memory upgrade option it's easier to plug standard SIMMs on a AWE32 and use a 8 MB RAM SF.

You can fix the maestro 32/96 reboot bug by replacing one capacitor. search vogons for details. It is a nice card with excellent wavetable sound, drawbacks are the lack of classic opl3 sound and its typical configuration.

What is usually easy to do is combining a PCI vortex 2 card, a SB-Live, or a Yamaha DS-XG with another ISA soundcard. The PCI soundcards are disabled until you run their init program.

Some ISA soundcards that I like personally: Yamaha OPL3-SAX and the CMI8330. Also the CS4232+OPL3 combination is very nice, but hard to find.

elianda wrote:

First of all, why do you require a AWE32 proprietary wavetable if you got the option to use a DX60XG clone?

I don't require one. The masterplan once was to use the CT-1740 with the DB. Since those AWEs crossed my way at ebay for next to free, I just couldn't resist. They are not as noisy as the CT-1740, and the CT2760 is not pnp. I've run some games and found that sometimes I like the AWE wave table better. If my options are to have it with less noise or or give it up for more noise and nothing better in return, what would I pick? 😉

elianda wrote:

For the ESS: Some of these old ESS behave the way that reconfiguring them to ressources that does not resemble the default values means just that they hear on the additional ressources too (especially IRQ) ... This feature is ... rather common with the early ISA-PnP (or semi-PnP) cards.

Well, this ESS 688 is as far from pnp as one can get. It has jumpers for everything. And if I choose IO 240, IRQ 7 and DMA 3, it won't hear on either this setting nor the old one. (They are legacy reserved in bios)
I've also changed the blaster variable, to be on the safe side. If I can't find the reason why it doesn't work this way, I could try to move the AWE elsewhere. (Edit: It works this way - the software I tried for testing did not. 😵 )

elianda wrote:

If you want to use an AWE I would prefer an AWE32 with 2x4MB SIMM vs. the AWE64 gold. The only reliable general midi emulation for the AWE runs under win9x anyway, so instead picking to a 2 MB ROM SF with proprietary memory upgrade option it's easier to plug standard SIMMs on a AWE32 and use a 8 MB RAM SF.

I do have 8MB in my AWE32. Haven't used it yet, but it sure feels good. 🤣 I don't think it can be used in DOS, so I didn't mention it here.
The only reason I can see in favor of the SB AWE64 gold is the low noise level.

gerwin wrote:

You can fix the maestro 32/96 reboot bug by replacing one capacitor.

I am aware of that. But I won't bother trying if I can't configure it. (Edit: I am too much of a tinkerer - consider it fixed. 😁 )

gerwin wrote:

What is usually easy to do is combining a PCI vortex 2 card, a SB-Live, or a Yamaha DS-XG with another ISA soundcard. The PCI soundcards are disabled until you run their init program.

Good to know after I bought a P3B-F with two ISA slots. 😵
As we both know, PCI sound is not really an option when you turn off the cache. Besides, what exactly would I gain from a SB-Live? They don't do SBPro OPL either, do they? Are you telling me that I can't get two ISA cards to work alongside? 😳

As far as I can tell with my limited knowledge, an AWE32 with a Yamaha DB and an OPL SBPro companion should be quite universal. As I am not a purist, I will pass up that gravis ultrasound bait. I would have
stereo sbpro with authentic retro opl sound,
SB16 compatibility without the cracks and pops of the original SB16,
General midi in virtually all games
AWE midi in supporting games or with a tsr.

I don't see the need for anything else at the moment.

Edit: I found the reason, my ESS would not respond. The test game (Warlords 2) won't run on any other settings. I switched to "Hexen" for testing and suddenly, I was able to move the card elsewhere. As it turned out, the ESS1868F can drive the yamaha DB. It can also quickly be given new settings in autoexec.bat. It does not have an OPL chip, but sounded very similar to the Ess688 with OPL.

ux-3 wrote:

Good to know after I bought a P3B-F with two ISA slots. 😵 As we both know, PCI sound is not really an option when you turn off the cache. Besides, what exactly would I gain from a SB-Live? They don't do SBPro OPL either, do they?

you are right about the cache thing of course. but each of these three PCI cards have a plus: Good mixer functions and Waveblaster conn. / genuine OPL3 / Soundfont support in windows 9X without CPU dependency.

ux-3 wrote:

Are you telling me that I can't get two ISA cards to work alongside? 😳

no, take it easy there...

ux-3 wrote:

As far as I can tell with my limited knowledge, an AWE32 with a Yamaha DB and an OPL SBPro companion should be quite universal. […]
Show full quote

As far as I can tell with my limited knowledge, an AWE32 with a Yamaha DB and an OPL SBPro companion should be quite universal. As I am not a purist, I will pass up that gravis ultrasound bait. I would have
stereo sbpro with authentic retro opl sound,
SB16 compatibility without the cracks and pops of the original SB16,
General midi in virtually all games
AWE midi in supporting games or with a tsr.
I don't see the need for anything else at the moment.

It is certainly sufficient, but an AWE32 has a very good change at corrupting the midi for the DB, so you better put the DB on the other card, which games support AWE midi natively, I can only recall something about magic carpet? Then if you want to run Windows9X games on the same system a PCI card is desirable, totalling three soundcards, requiring an external mixer (I can usually mix 1 ISA card through a PCI card). Well, that is just the way I think now, preferences differ.

gerwin wrote:

but each of these three PCI cards have a plus: Good mixer functions and Waveblaster conn. / genuine OPL3 / Soundfont support in windows 9X without CPU dependency.

I've just been staring at my SB Live! I can't find a waveblaster connector. Nor do I find anything that looks like an OPL3. Do I look at the wrong card?

gerwin wrote:

It is certainly sufficient, but an AWE32 has a very good change at corrupting the midi for the DB, so you better put the DB on the other card

I have "hexen warped" the older AWE32 card extensively, it never got stuck in there. If I use the ESS Schubert, I would have an alternative carrier. Same goes for the Maestro 32/96.

gerwin wrote:

which games support AWE midi natively, I can only recall something about magic carpet?

I thought that many games offered awe32 for music. Hexen would be an example.

gerwin wrote:

Then if you want to run Windows9X games on the same system a PCI card is desirable

The Live! does offer SB16 compatibility, right? Is that your suggestion? Move SB16 to PCI, cause those games need cache anyway.

About the mixer: I have the thing connected to a full size receiver directly next to me. I can just hook up another card and push a button when I want to hear another card. Only when both are playing, I would have to pass through.

I cant use AWE32 for hexen too.
And for Example this sounds good to:
If you have XP (not vista/7) you can try Yamaha S-YXG50. It installs to your system so you can change your default MIDI device to it in control panel so all applications can use it.
http://jord.nm.ru/S-YXG50v4.21.07R.zip

A Windows softsynth won't be very useful on a DOS machine will it?

ux-3 wrote:

I've just been staring at my SB Live! I can't find a waveblaster connector. Nor do I find anything that looks like an OPL3. Do I look at the wrong card?

You misunderstood, I was writing some pro's for each of the three mentioned PCI cards seperated by "/". Only the soundfont support goes for the Live, and I forgot to mention the reasonable DOS SB16 digital emulation (but poor GM/FM).

ux-3 wrote:

I have "hexen warped" the older AWE32 card extensively, it never got stuck in there. If I use the ESS Schubert, I would have an alternative carrier. Same goes for the Maestro 32/96.

Okay, you lucky. My CT2800 SB16 gives plenty trouble. Tie Fighter acted very weird with it.

ux-3 wrote:

I thought that many games offered awe32 for music. Hexen would be an example.

Well that is like minimal support, because it does not allow one to use soundfonts of choice, it defaults to the 1MB ROM patch set, which does not do midi music much good.

ux-3 wrote:

The Live! does offer SB16 compatibility, right? Is that your suggestion? Move SB16 to PCI, cause those games need cache anyway.

It does SB16 emulation as I wrote earlier in this reply, but that is not exactly why I mentioned it.
I mentioned the PCI cards because they are a convienient mixer and give you proper Direct-X support in Windows 9X and may have useful SB emulation and may have a useful midi interface/chipset and other goodies like S/PDIF in/out...
Myself I still have a CMI8330 ISA installed, which does SB16 digital, together with a Vortex 2 with I/O bracket. photos in this topic

ux-3 wrote:

About the mixer: I have the thing connected to a full size receiver directly next to me. I can just hook up another card and push a button when I want to hear another card. Only wwhen both are playing, I would have to pass through.

I see. sounds good.

gerwin wrote:

Only the soundfont support goes for the Live, and I forgot to mention the reasonable DOS SB16 digital emulation (but poor GM/FM).

So that answers my question regarding the SB Pro compatibility.

gerwin wrote:

My CT2800 SB16 gives plenty trouble. Tie Fighter acted very weird with it.

I havent't tried that, never really played it in the past. If it is a quick testing ground, I may give it a try. I am growing tired of hexen.

gerwin wrote:

Well that is like minimal support (AWE for hexen), because it does not allow one to use soundfonts of choice, it defaults to the 1MB ROM patch set, which does not do midi music much good.

I know this sounds stupid, but what could I do with my yamaha DB beyond selecting it instead?

ux-3 wrote:

I mentioned the PCI cards because they are a convienient mixer and give you proper Direct-X support in Windows 9X and may have useful SB emulation and may have a useful midi interface/chipset and other goodies like S/PDIF in/out...

I see. I would think that most games that demand Direct-X support on this level will run happily under XP. What if they only encounter an ess or sbawe card in win98? I am running short of slots!

Edit: The Maestro seems to halt the machine when the AWE32 gets initialized. Presumably, the SB16 CT-1740 won't have that problem, but it sounds atrocious on a hifi system.

On the other hand, the ESS Schubert and the AWE32 seem to cooperate nicely. All addresses of the Schubert are directly accessible in autoexec.bat and can be changed there at will. For the compatibility test, I played sound effects from one card and fm from the other. That worked.

gerwin wrote:

I mentioned the PCI cards because they are a convienient mixer and give you proper Direct-X support in Windows 9X

Would an AWE32 not work for later windows 98 games? I never tried it so far.

Must admit I cannot remember exactly what was my complaint about using an ISA soundcard as the main windows 9X audio device... I did try it for a while with the Maestro 32/96. Wasn't it complaining when I tried to play mp3's in the background whilst using another program with audio simultaniously?

I think no isa cards support directsound 3d

gerwin wrote:

I did try it for a while with the Maestro 32/96. Wasn't it complaining when I tried to play mp3's in the background whilst using another program with audio simultaniously?

That Maestro32/96 has gained popularity with me, since I found out why it wasn't working. I had to enable pnp operating system in bios, to set it up right. WSS would not work otherwise. A decent all in one compromise card. The wavetable seems fair enough, though the yamaha sounds better to me. As you can have both with it, thats only fair.

I am not planning to play mp3s on it while doing other audio stuff. I do have a sb live 5.1. What would be the advantage to use an mx300 instead?

And on a higher abstraction level, what games would require it? I am still not sure what the latest win98 only (!) games will be. As my goal is to cut it down to just one retro machine, I have other more pressing needs, which keep the fate of that shared ISA/PCI slot still under debate.
Just like you, I would want some fast USB2.0 ports. I also have an V2-SLI set and a V1. And network is nice to have too. So I am out of ports already. A PCI soundcard would have to offer a strategic benefit. Should win98 refuse to work with ISA further up, that would be a compelling reason.

ux-3 wrote:

I am not planning to play mp3s on it while doing other audio stuff. I do have a sb live 5.1. What would be the advantage to use an mx300 instead?

Well mainly Vortex-2 is one of the few PCI cards that has a waveblaster header which works nicely in DOS and the Windows 9X DosBox. Also SB-Live DOS emulation requires emm386.

ux-3 wrote:

Just like you, I would want some fast USB2.0 ports. I also have an V2-SLI set and a V1. And network is nice to have too. So I am out of ports already. A PCI soundcard would have to offer a strategic benefit. Should win98 refuse to work with ISA further up, that would be a compelling reason.

V2-SLI, so that is the culprit. 😉

If I find no game that needs V2-SLI instead of V5 5500, I will srcap the SLI gladly and go to single V2 or V1. Already, this retro crate needs lots of ventilation...
I can see it put to use in the kitchen - as a toaster. The space between the cards should be just right.

I have now obtained a Terratec Gold 16/96. ESS1868F, DB connector, SB Pro compatible. The Lineout seems very weak. Power out has punch but is somewhat distorted. The card was thought as an alternative for the Schubert, this one offering the DB connector at a reasonable location. I will compare the sound quality later tonight.

ux-3 wrote:

As my goal is to cut it down to just one retro machine, I have other more pressing needs, which keep the fate of that shared ISA/PCI slot still under debate.
Just like you, I would want some fast USB2.0 ports. I also have an V2-SLI set and a V1. And network is nice to have too. So I am out of ports already. A PCI soundcard would have to offer a strategic benefit. Should win98 refuse to work with ISA further up, that would be a compelling reason.

I'am not sure the perfect solution exists for this. For slots you usually have max. 6 PCI and 2 ISA at best. Usually with an AT board since it represents the 8x 16 Bit ISA layout. Now with AGP it is 1 / 5 / 2 at best. Next thing to consider is that V2 SLI are long cards which can get tricky with AT-layout.
With ATX you often have already 1 ISA slot only. Considering that it is usually shared you lose one PCI.

This means: If you use all PCI (AGP incl.) you need 2 ISA slots to be able to use the last non-shared slot.
So you say graphics card, V2 SLI, V1, PCI Sound, PCI Network <- so all 6 slots are used. Considering you want to use another ISA soundcard you need 2 ISA slots.
So when optimizing this there are several possibilities:
You drop a PCI card for USB 2,
best candidates are the V1, if your games will run on V2 too
maybe one V2 but I guess you want the SLI if using V2 at all
or the PCI soundcard if the ISA soundcard is sufficient

Another option is to look for a mainboard with onboard LAN f.e.
the problem with this that usually on the older boards this solution is implemented instead of a PCI slot/device. So you usually don't win a slot with this.

A more rarely used option is to extend the ISA-Bus with a riser board. Though this will not fit into standard cases and require additional modding efforts.

As for the decision whether or not to use a network or fast USB 2 card I would always use the network solution. I guess your Win98 system already has at least USB 1.1. So for what exactly is USB 2 required?
Do you transfer such amounts of data to or from your retro PC which can't be transferred by LAN or via USB 1.1 ?
Do you want to use some exclusivly USB 2.0 devices with your retro PC?
Also consider that alot of USB 2.0 cards require PCI 2.2.

You can't build a machine that will work with everything. That project will end up over budget and with no solution. 😁 I think the best you can do is build a box that will run most games from the 486 era up to DirectX 8 stuff. Older games will usually need quirky speed tweaks.

There are a few 440BX mobos with 3 ISA. ASUS P2B for example.

My setup these days is DOSBOX for most things and a retrorig-of-the-month for occasional fun. 😀

Thanks a lot for your elaborate reply. I deal with it in parts. I am talking only ATX mobos here. As far as I can see it, the choice comes down to Asus P3B-F or AOPEN AX6BC. In either case: 1 AGP, 5 PCI, 2 ISA, one of them shared.

elianda wrote:

So you say graphics card, V2 SLI, V1, PCI Sound, PCI Network <- so all 6 slots are used. Considering you want to use another ISA […]
Show full quote

So you say graphics card, V2 SLI, V1, PCI Sound, PCI Network <- so all 6 slots are used. Considering you want to use another ISA soundcard you need 2 ISA slots.
So when optimizing this there are several possibilities:
You drop a PCI card for USB 2,
best candidates are the V1, if your games will run on V2 too
maybe one V2 but I guess you want the SLI if using V2 at all
or the PCI soundcard if the ISA soundcard is sufficient.

The machine will have at most two soundcards. One ISA, one either. My demands are definetly less then 100% perfection in this department. I was used to SBpro in the early nineties, later SB32AWE and AWE64 Gold.

My current strategy would be to run a V1 and a V2 parallel at first. Should all my games run on the V2, I would drop the V1. Then I would see, if SLI works too. Since the main card will be a V5 5500 AGP, not too many games should require V1/2 (I hope).

The PCI Slot next to the V5 shares an IRQ with the AGP. It would be desireable to use it with a IRQ-less Voodoo1/2. This would require a mod for cooling the V5 like venting the gaps with a huge fan.

Another option is to look for a mainboard with onboard LAN f.e.
the problem with this that usually on the older boards this solution is implemented instead of a PCI slot/device. So you usually don't win a slot with this.

I wouldn't even know of one, that offered this.

As for the decision whether or not to use a network or fast USB 2 card I would always use the network solution. I guess your Win98 system already has at least USB 1.1. So for what exactly is USB 2 required?
Do you transfer such amounts of data to or from your retro PC which can't be transferred by LAN or via USB 1.1 ?

USB2.0 is wanted for backup and file transfer from HDD, card or stick. If it would work, it could be used with a usb-network adapter too, perhaps saving the network slot. The manual of the card holds no information regarding PCI 2.x. Should it not work, so be it.

swaaye wrote:

You can't build a machine that will work with everything. That project will end up over budget and with no solution. 😁

No kidding, swaaye? 😉

swaaye wrote:

I think the best you can do is build a box that will run most games from the 486 era up to DirectX 8 stuff. Older games will usually need quirky speed tweaks.

That is exactly what I am after. And I limit it to stuff that will not work fair under WinXP. So I don't think I have too much trouble.

There are a few 440BX mobos with 3 ISA.

I am not as crazed about audio (yet) as some others are around here. Two audio cards should be all I need. Perhaps even one will do.

Just yesterday I checked Warlords2 with a lot of my cards hooked up to the main stereo. I found that despite all the bitching, my AWE32 non PNP with yamaha DB sounded best to me. So I might just take that as first choice. I would only want to add a SBpro compatible card with an OPL3 and a DB connector, so I could shift the DB or the FM synthesis there. I also have an CMI8330A on the way, which gerwin did consider a good alternative.

However, I consider it quite a possible option to just use the AWE32 with DB alone, accepting SBpro in mono. I have tried enough audio choices, which were all budget picks. All I really need in the Dos department is clear SBPro OPL3 plus DB, so I may just add a card that offers both. (Would YAMAHA YMF719E-S qualify?)

Edit: CMI8330A just arrived. I shall finish up my work and resume testing asap...