Mondodimotori wrote on Yesterday, 19:37:

[*]The CPU: That Duron isn't fast enough for a machine like this one, and even if it was I wanna preserve the little rascal for sentimental reasons, since I had it and used it since 2002 at least. I was thinking to an Athlon XP, maybe something not that fast (under 2Ghz, if possible, for compatibility with some games I wanna play), maybe even from the mobile series. What are your experiences with them? I was eying either a 2500+ or a 2600+ from the Barton series, that's very cheap and uses a little under 70W of power, wich shouldn't be a problem for the cooler I have.

Are there any games which actually have issues with faster CPUs at that point? I may be totally wrong but AFAIK at this point faster=better with no downsides.

That said 2500+ barton, AXDA2500DKV4D, 333x11 is a fun one as many (most?) of them run at 400x11 just fine, becoming basically 3200+ - the fastest S462 CPU.

Mondodimotori wrote on Yesterday, 19:37:

[*]The HDD: Currently I put in the machine a 2.5 inch 250GB sata HDD I recovered from an old laptop of one of my bosses, and it just works fine with this motherboard + Windows XP. Of course, I said I wanna use this machine for Windows 9x (probably Win Me, since I have slower machines that can be recicled for 98SE) so I must get a smaller HDD, that fits in the 9x HDD limitations, probably an IDE one to avoid any kind of incompatibilities. I probably have one 80Gb unit lying around, so I may use that one.

Cheap 120GB SSD. As long as you are not too attached to HDD noise or something. Fits 98 limitations and should work just fine on MCP2-R SATA.

Mondodimotori wrote on Yesterday, 19:37:

[*]The RAM: For now, the ram appears to be running at 200mhz DDR (equivalent to 400mhz), wich is the max speed this kit offers. Of course, the CPU I would get won't have a 400MT/s FSB, but at best a 333MT/s one, so I'll probably have to downclock the ram a bit, and gain a bit of latency out of it. But, if push comes to shove, I can get a better kit (even if used), but I would like to avoid it, since this kit is brand new.

Nforce 2 really likes CPU FSB and RAM frequency to be the same. It easily performs better with FSB/RAM at 333 than with 333/400. Does dual channel work? Be sure to run memtest, nforce2 can be quite annoying in terms of RAM.

Archer57 wrote on Today, 02:00:

Are there any games which actually have issues with faster CPUs at that point? I may be totally wrong but AFAIK at this point faster=better with no downsides.

That said 2500+ barton, AXDA2500DKV4D, 333x11 is a fun one as many (most?) of them run at 400x11 just fine, becoming basically 3200+ - the fastest S462 CPU.

AFAIK, only Fifa 2002 fromy pool of games doesn't like 2ghz+ CPUs, but there could be more. I'm also doing this to avoid excessive heat, so I may be avoiding over clocking for this one.

Archer57 wrote on Today, 02:00:

Cheap 120GB SSD. As long as you are not too attached to HDD noise or something. Fits 98 limitations and should work just fine on MCP2-R SATA.

Aren't SSDs a little bit problematic to run on Xp and older OSs? Because they don't perform some maintenance procedures that ssd requires?
I still kept an hdd in my definitive xp machine, so I don't really feel the need for faster ssd.
If I'll go with sata, I'll try and look for a smaller 120gb hdd.

Archer57 wrote on Today, 02:00:

Nforce 2 really likes CPU FSB and RAM frequency to be the same. It easily performs better with FSB/RAM at 333 than with 333/400. Does dual channel work? Be sure to run memtest, nforce2 can be quite annoying in terms of RAM.

I'm pretty sure my kit does have presets for both 200 and 166mhz, and it does run in dual channel. But yes, is still worth trying a memtest just to check stability.

Mondodimotori wrote on Today, 06:51:

AFAIK, only Fifa 2002 fromy pool of games doesn't like 2ghz+ CPUs, but there could be more. I'm also doing this to avoid excessive heat, so I may be avoiding over clocking for this one.

It is possible to switch between 100/133/166/200 FSB on most motherboards without it affecting any other clocks, so worst case if you got 3200+, for example, and some game refuses to work at 2+Ghz you can always go into bios and set it to 166 instead of 200.

Mondodimotori wrote on Today, 06:51:

Aren't SSDs a little bit problematic to run on Xp and older OSs? Because they don't perform some maintenance procedures that ssd requires?
I still kept an hdd in my definitive xp machine, so I don't really feel the need for faster ssd.
If I'll go with sata, I'll try and look for a smaller 120gb hdd.

Not really. Lack of TRIM affects wear and performance, but is by no means critical. People are simply obsessed about it too much.

Can use HDD too, performance would not really matter for 98. For me the reason to prefer SSD is availability, price and reliability. You can not get new HDD small enough to not cause issues with 98, but new 120GB SSDs still exist. Also no noise.

Abit nf7-s2g is a nice board that should provide a solid foundation for your system. That being said I got 2 of them and none works with a SSD. you need a regular sata HDD with a max capacity of 120gb and you are all set. Please be aware that archer57 is right: FSB:DRAM must be run in sync.
Any barton would be more than enough for 98se/me, 2500 is an excellent choice because most of the time it can be run at FSB 200 and is very cheap.
Do not skimp on the power supply: get one from a known manufacturer. Don't think that if the board has the p4 connector you can use any PSU. get one with a minimum of 20A on the 5v rail - i said this based on my experience with abit socket A boards.

Archer57 wrote on Today, 09:26:

It is possible to switch between 100/133/166/200 FSB on most motherboards without it affecting any other clocks, so worst case if you got 3200+, for example, and some game refuses to work at 2+Ghz you can always go into bios and set it to 166 instead of 200.

Yup, that I know. Unfortunately, I just checked prices for 3200+ CPUs... It is painful. So I think I'll still go with a lower clocked one, more for heat/power than anything else. Unfortunately also good coolers for 462 are hella expensive, and I didn't even saw one that attach throught the mounting holes on the MOBO. Of course, I could always MacGyver my way around it and try to use a modern cooler...

Mondodimotori wrote on Today, 06:51:

Not really. Lack of TRIM affects wear and performance, but is by no means critical. People are simply obsessed about it too much.

Can use HDD too, performance would not really matter for 98. For me the reason to prefer SSD is availability, price and reliability. You can not get new HDD small enough to not cause issues with 98, but new 120GB SSDs still exist. Also no noise.

Let's say that also HDD comes pretty cheap, but on the used market. Less than 10€ with shipping and you get either a SATA or even IDE unit, with ebay warranty attached to it. I also have a ton of them, but none is under 120GB. Only one NOS 80GB IDE that I put somewhere (gotta find it first)

nd22 wrote on Today, 11:28:

Abit nf7-s2g is a nice board that should provide a solid foundation for your system. That being said I got 2 of them and none works with a SSD. you need a regular sata HDD with a max capacity of 120gb and you are all set. Please be aware that archer57 is right: FSB:DRAM must be run in sync.
Any barton would be more than enough for 98se/me, 2500 is an excellent choice because most of the time it can be run at FSB 200 and is very cheap.
Do not skimp on the power supply: get one from a known manufacturer. Don't think that if the board has the p4 connector you can use any PSU. get one with a minimum of 20A on the 5v rail - i said this based on my experience with abit socket A boards.

Yup, I burned myself with the first attempt at installing XP. I used a 2TB sata HDD and, when rebooting the system (or soft resetting) it would just hang after post, being unable to load any kind of storage devices. I ended up putting a small 250GB laptop HDD and it worked no issues. Of course, this HDD won't cut it for Win9x, and using an SSD feels overkill when, on my other 462 system, on a Maxtor 40GB IDE drive, Windows ME boots faster than Windows XP on a 7200rpm HDD. It even boot faster than my previous main rig on Ryzen 3600 (just because it needed 10+seconds to post). I'm into the OS not even 30 seconds after powering on the machine. Into a game less than 60 seconds.

Currently is running in a 2:1 sync, 200mhz on the RAM (dual channel, thus 400 effectively) and 100 on the CPU. I believe that this kit doesn't have a native profile for 100mhz, only for 166 and 200. Thus a CPU with 166 should be fine for a perfect 1:1 ratio. Of course, I could try the OC way and reach a 200 FSB, but I would like to avoid that for cooling reasons. This cooler is enough for a classic Athlon 1.4Ghz (with good airflow in the case), but I fear that OCing it to 200mhz FSB will bring the power usage up close to 80 Watts. That feels like a lot for the cooling setup I have.

The PSU will be from a reputable brand simply because I wanna get a good modular unit, since I want the least amout of cables around as possible, especially if I keep the machine in this case (instead of getting one of those wacky desings from the mid 2000s). The PSU that came with this case is a 500W Cooler Master OEM unit. It has around 10 years on it's back, and I tracked most of them, and has 30A both on the 5V and 3.3 V rail. It's a solid unit, in AIDA64 voltages never drops, so I may keep it for those builds that lacks a p4 connector. Of course, I'm pretty sure that 20 amps on the 5v shouldn't be a problem even for modern PSUs, so I can just buy a new unit from a big brand, the price can go to hell.

EDIT: What about XP-M Processors? What's your experience with them? Because I read they are much lower in power than the main series, while keeping the same clocks/FSB speeds. How much performances do you loose with them?

Mondodimotori wrote on Today, 12:02:

EDIT: What about XP-M Processors? What's your experience with them? Because I read they are much lower in power than the main series, while keeping the same clocks/FSB speeds. How much performances do you loose with them?

You don't loose any performance if the CLOCK&FSB are the same. Being lower powered, you can overvolt and overclock them easily. Usually the 2500+ model would run fine at real 2500MHz or even more.

kixs wrote on Today, 13:00:

You don't loose any performance if the CLOCK&FSB are the same. Being lower powered, you can overvolt and overclock them easily. Usually the 2500+ model would run fine at real 2500MHz or even more.

That is interesting to know... It would certainly help keep the CPU cool. Currently the Duron, wich is rated for 50 watts, runs at maximum 40° under 100% workloads.
So a low power chip would run pretty chill in the system, meaning I don't need to use high speed fans, reducing the noise the PC makes, wich is alredy relevant with the GPU fan from the FX5600.

I wonder why AMD had such differences in wattage with such minimal performance differences? And did they make 166mhz CPUs for 462? And what about the "Low Voltage" models I see around?

I do not have any athlon xp-m processors - those run at lower voltage and have a lower TDP. I got an xp 3200 on abit an7 and i have to use a corsair rm750 psu with 25A onthe 5v rail. So pick your psu carefully.

nd22 wrote on Today, 15:38:

I do not have any athlon xp-m processors - those run at lower voltage and have a lower TDP. I got an xp 3200 on abit an7 and i have to use a corsair rm750 psu with 25A onthe 5v rail. So pick your psu carefully.

Geeee... I thought that having the CPU connector would free me of needing a strong 5V rail... 20 amps are pretty easy to find, even on budget 550w PSUs (that are still from good brands and rated good on SPL's Tier List). But 25 amps starts getting harder.

Of course, I'm not gonna get an XP 3200, since those would cost me more than the whole system I built right now, so I think I should be safe with 20A with around 110 watts on the rail, considering I'll use a low powered GPU (FX5600) and only two periferals (either sata or IDE). I don't think the sound card will use much power too. The whole system may pull a little over 200 watts under heavy loads, and most of those would be used by the CPU, wich should be fed enough power by the 12v rail.
But then, If I have to buy a PSU with 25A on those rails, that's from a reputable brand... Then the PSU will cost me even more than an XP 3200!

I feel like I'm back at the same issue I had with my mobo that lacked a CPU connector: finding a 25+ A PSU on both the 3.3v and 5v rail. Wich I did. I have two enermax that have 30+ amps on both rails. But they are almost 20 years old. I really don't want to use them that much on high power build, I'm alredy pushing it on the Athlon 1.4 build.

Is it really necessary to have that strong of a rail? Or is just hearsays and speculations? Because I swear I read people, on this very forum, running Athlon CPUs on 25 amps and no CPU connector, so wich is it?

EDIT: You mean THIS ONE? Because on the italian page for it the power table rates both the 5v rail and 3.3 at 20A, max xombined power of 150W. Is yours a different model?

Mondodimotori wrote on Yesterday, 19:37:

Thus, now I need to decide how to complete this build, and here's what:
...
I was thinking to an Athlon XP, maybe something not that fast (under 2Ghz, if possible, for compatibility with some games I wanna play), maybe even from the mobile series. What are your experiences with them? I was eying either a 2500+ or a 2600+ from the Barton series, that's very cheap and uses a little under 70W of power, wich shouldn't be a problem for the cooler I have.

Totally, thumbs up for the Athlon XP 2500+ Barton.
Stock runs at 1.86 GHz (IIRC) when FSB is 333 MHz, and can be OC-ed to 3200+ via 400 MHz FSB without raising the voltage, so you get a neat speed boost without that much more added heat.

Alternatively, go with a Barton-based Semprons - i.e. something like a 2600+ or 2800+ or 3000+. These are Barton cores with half the cache, so they perform around the same as Athlon XP Thorougbred B cores with the same PR ratings (IIRC!) In other words, you probably won't be loosing more than around 10% in performance... which in games will translate to even less loss. The only reason I suggest the Sempron is because historically they were often cheaper and easier to find.

I don't have any experience with Athlon XP-M, so I cannot make further comments on those. But if priced much higher than standard AXP or Sempron, I'd skip them. Seems you have a good cooler already, so probably no need to worry about the heat too much. If anything, I would be more concerned about the lack of an exhaust fan in you case. s462 CPUs don't throttle much by default, so their TDP = heat they dissipate all the time inside the case. Without a case exhaust fan, that case will get pretty hot inside pretty quick.

Mondodimotori wrote on Yesterday, 19:37:

... since Volcano 11s go for around 70 to 100€ with shipping

Gee, that is pretty insane.
For that amount, I can go to a CNC shop around here and have them machine me an aluminum base to clamp onto the CPU, then install whatever cooler I desire.

Mondodimotori wrote on Yesterday, 19:37:

The PSU: Something that was a huge headache with my originals 462 and 370 builds, in this case is probably the simplest thing to replace.

Yup.
Seeing that your motherboard has a 4-pin 12v CPU connector, this one should be a no-brainer. 😀

Mondodimotori wrote on Yesterday, 19:37:

This OEM 500w PSU currently in the system does report 30 amps on both the 5v and 3.3v rail, so I could use it in one of those older builds that lacks a CPU 12v connector.

Ha!
I wouldn't trust a single number on the label of that Thermal Master PSU, even if my sock's life depended on it.
Have you opened one? They are kinda gutless units. Well, not anywhere near the worst. If anything, they are "workable". But I would still not run one "as-is" in any PC I care about, mainly because the output filtering is concerningly lacking on these PSUs (1 cap per output rail, it seems.)

Mondodimotori wrote on Yesterday, 19:37:

The case:
...
What do you say? Is it worth getting another case, leaving this one as a permanent test bench, or should I just spare me those 10/20€ of a wacky case and keep this one permanently?

I'd say, keep this case with this build. It has an opening on the back for a 120 mm fan, which I would highly recommend you install. The side and front ventilation holes should really help keep this s462 build cool, particularly with a higher-end CPU. Now, if you do go with an AXP-M or some other low-power CPU, then OK, you can probably go with some era-appropriate case with less-than-stellar cooling.

Archer57 wrote on Today, 09:26:

It is possible to switch between 100/133/166/200 FSB on most motherboards without it affecting any other clocks, so worst case if you got 3200+, for example, and some game refuses to work at 2+Ghz you can always go into bios and set it to 166 instead of 200.

Actually, there might be an easier way here.
Instead of messing with FSB, you may be able to just lower the multiplier in Windows.
Now I don't remember if I tested that on s462, but I do know it works absolutely fine on just about any motherboard with Crystal CPUID. In particular, I can change both V_core voltage and multiplier on any of my s754, s939, and AM2 X2 CPU boards right on the fly. As I type this, I'm running my X2 6000+ at 2.4 GHz and 1.175V instead of the default 3 GHz frequency and 1.45V core. Result: much less heat. I can bog down the CPU at 100% load, and my temps won't go above 50C on the core. With the stock voltage, that figure changes to 59-63C, which is a little too close for comfort for me for these CPUs.

nd22 wrote on Today, 11:28:

Don't think that if the board has the p4 connector you can use any PSU. get one with a minimum of 20A on the 5v rail - i said this based on my experience with abit socket A boards.

If the board does have a 4-pin 12V CPU connector, then there's absolutely no reason to hunt for a CPU with a strong 5V rail - I say this based on experience measuring current draw on old motherboards (including Abit.)
The chipset (Northbridge + Southbridge) on virtually any s462 motherboard does not use more than 10-15 Watts. The RAM would be another 10W in the absolute worst case. So you are looking at 20-25 Watts total.. which translated to either 4 Amps from the 5V rail if powered by that rail alone... *or* 8 Amps from the 3.3V rail if powered by that rail alone. Usually it's split, so either the chipset is powered by 3.3V and the RAM by 5V or the other way around... or a weird combo in between. Whichever the case, you do NOT need anywhere near 20 Amps on the 5V rail.
Make exception only if you plan to use a Radeon 9700 or 9800 video card, as those draw heavily from the 3.3V and 5V rails (about 40-45 Watts combined.)

Mondodimotori wrote on Today, 06:51:

AFAIK, only Fifa 2002 fromy pool of games doesn't like 2ghz+ CPUs, but there could be more.

Interesting.
What happens to that game when the CPU is >2 GHz?
FWIW, NFS Porsche Unleashed also has some issues with CPU's over 2 GHz (game textures and world map default to lowest, among a few other smaller graphical issues.) Someone released a HOW-TO on Github to patch this and it works great. That said, I do wonder if this would be the same issue on Fifa 2002. Seems too new, as NFS Hot Pursuit 2 (a 2001 game - the next installement of the NFS series after Porsche Unleashed) doesn't have that issue. But with EA, you never know.

Mondodimotori wrote on Yesterday, 19:37:

And I bet it would've been painful to run a machine on 462 in 2007.

In 2007? - Not really.
But by the mid 2010's, it was.
Scripts in "Web 2.0" after around 2010 have simply gotten too "fat" for old CPUs.