VOGONS


A "broad spectrum" 90s build?

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Reply 60 of 88, by keenmaster486

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2mg wrote on 2021-07-18, 08:52:

Pretty please pick ~3 of them. I'd prefer ones that do DOS as good as the do W9x, but DOS is primary here, as I can (should I?) get some 5.1 Live! for W9x exclusively. Plus I already have that AV511 CM8738, which as I noticed by Vogons is bad?

YMF719
SB CT4170 Vibra
ES1868

I flermmed the plootash just like you asked.
World's foremost 486 enjoyer.

Reply 61 of 88, by 2mg

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dormcat wrote on 2021-07-17, 14:04:
2mg wrote on 2021-07-17, 12:18:

I'll pull the exact specs of it when I get the dang USB-PS/2 adapters for KB+M, it has 2 USB ports, but none work once it gets into W98.

A motherboard for Coppermine P3 should be able to recognize USB keyboard and mouse.

Check the BIOS for "USB Legacy Support;" for example, my Gigabyte GA-6VXC7-4X-P has the default value "Disabled" (user's manual attached).

Alright, USB hangs the system, but it works normally in BIOS and Safe Mode. Will prolly have to reinstall W98 anyway.

HELP
I've an issue with RAM, there is 1x256MB PC-133 and 1x32MB PC-100 installed. However, BOTH the BIOS and DXDIAG see 160MB. Where to start?

Reply 62 of 88, by Intel486dx33

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Try these motherboards:
Intel 430tx with ( WIth ISA and PCI slots )
Intel BX440 ( with AGP , PCI, and ISA slots )
Super socket 7 motherboard ( Intel or Via chipset ) ( AGP, PCI, ISA slots )

CPU’s
Intel Pentium 200mmx or 233mmx
Intel Pentium II 400
Intel Pentium III 500mhz. or higher.
AMD K62
AMD K63+
AMD Duran
AMD Athlon

Sound cards:
Any - All supported

Video cards:
Any - All supported

Reply 63 of 88, by Oetker

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2mg wrote on 2021-07-19, 09:29:
Alright, USB hangs the system, but it works normally in BIOS and Safe Mode. Will prolly have to reinstall W98 anyway. […]
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dormcat wrote on 2021-07-17, 14:04:
2mg wrote on 2021-07-17, 12:18:

I'll pull the exact specs of it when I get the dang USB-PS/2 adapters for KB+M, it has 2 USB ports, but none work once it gets into W98.

A motherboard for Coppermine P3 should be able to recognize USB keyboard and mouse.

Check the BIOS for "USB Legacy Support;" for example, my Gigabyte GA-6VXC7-4X-P has the default value "Disabled" (user's manual attached).

Alright, USB hangs the system, but it works normally in BIOS and Safe Mode. Will prolly have to reinstall W98 anyway.

HELP
I've an issue with RAM, there is 1x256MB PC-133 and 1x32MB PC-100 installed. However, BOTH the BIOS and DXDIAG see 160MB. Where to start?

Does the 256MB module have chips on both sides of the stick? I think your motherboard's VIA chipset should work with those, but for example the 440BX chipset only supports 256MB sticks with chips on both sides of the module. Maybe you just need to clean the sticks/slot.

Reply 64 of 88, by 2mg

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Oetker wrote on 2021-07-19, 10:11:

Does the 256MB module have chips on both sides of the stick? I think your motherboard's VIA chipset should work with those, but for example the 440BX chipset only supports 256MB sticks with chips on both sides of the module. Maybe you just need to clean the sticks/slot.

No, both sticks are single-sided. You're thinking 256mb stick is read as 128mb, +32mb stick = 160mb?

I moved slots, and cleaned too just in case.

So it's either a faulty stick (is that even possible, to work but half-only?) or MBO needs a dual-sided stick for 256mb?
Does the MBO in whole or just the chipset dictate this potential issue?

Here's the manual, I've a revision A of that board, can't find the correct manual unfortunately: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1687364/Dfi … l?page=6#manual

Also, the 32mb stick is PC-100, 256mb stick is PC-133, and PIII 500E is inside if any of that matters.

Since this MBO can fit 66/100/133 CPU, do I need to place a CPU with FSB 133 if I use PC-133 RAM? Basically, does 500E benefit from PC-133 over PC-100?

Last edited by 2mg on 2021-07-19, 12:51. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 65 of 88, by chinny22

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2mg wrote on 2021-07-17, 19:49:

Got an ATI Rage 128 on the way, found some for cheap. Possibly a TNT2 too. Is m64 version much worse from a normal TNT2?

Yes the M64 is severely crippled but any TNT2 will hold back performance of a 700Mhz PC. If its TNT2 Vs Rage I'd stick with the Rage.

2mg wrote on 2021-07-17, 19:49:

But wasn't a "real" internal speaker capable of more than 1bit sound? If connected to a soundcard or something?

Unlike the piezo a "real" internal speaker is a true analogue device so in theory able to produce more sound, but the reality is we are talking about early days when every byte counted so the sound code was rarely anything advanced.
Not saying the piezo is as good as a speaker its not, but how many PC speaker only games do you actually want to play? Street Rod is my main game and it's pretty bad on both speaker and piezo 😜

2mg wrote on 2021-07-17, 19:49:

PS: Is the -5v: -0.01 in BIOS an issue for anything like ISA?

Here is a list of cards that require -5v, its a small list and nothing you have been looking at
ISA Cards & Devices Requiring -5V

As for your soundcard list I've broken them down to 3 groups as the ESS ones are basically the same in real world usage, If going ESS go with best price.
All 3 are really good and the negitives aren't really that bad for example.
Not many games had 16 bit sound anyway and the ones that did may indeed support the non creative option, it's just not guaranteed.
People hate Creatives CQM, others don't really mind. I fall into the 2nd category.

Sound Blaster CT4170 Vibra 16XV
+ Full SB16 compatibility
- Has CQM not OPL
- Games that only support SB Pro will be mono only

YMF719E-S OPL
+ True OPL
+ Full SB Pro compatibility
- Game requires WSS support for 16 bit sound

ESS1869 (ES1869FC)
ESS AudioDrive ES1869FC
ESS AudioDrive ES1869FC 3D ESFM OPL3 (there's two of these)
ESS AudioDrive ES1868F ESFM OPL3
COMPAQ ESS AudioDrive ES1868F
Compaq PremierSound ESS AudioDrive 1869F
Compaq Premier Sound ESS AudioDrive ES1869F
ESS AudioDrive ES1688F / ES968F
ESS AudioDrive ES1868F BINAURA 3D OPL3

All these cards are basically the same (either a 1868 or slightly revised 1869)
+ Not a true OPL chip but highly regarded clone
+ Full SB Pro support
- Game Requires AudioDrive support for 16 bit

And yes I'd recommend a SBLive for Windows 9x
The ISA cards will work in 9x but by PCI card standards the snr rating is crap and you miss out on things like EAX.
I'd say ISA cards in 9x are about the same quality as onboard sound on laptops. It does the job but it isn't great.

2mg wrote on 2021-07-19, 10:40:

Since this MBO can fit 66/100/133 CPU, do I need to place a CPU with FSB 133 if I use PC-133 RAM? Basically, does 500E benefit from PC-133 over PC-100?

You don't need to match CPU and RAM. I put 133 ram in all my builds even though all of my CPU's are only 100 Mhz. My thinking is maybe the faster ram makes a difference? probably not but the price difference is next to nothing so who cares!

Reply 66 of 88, by 2mg

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chinny22 wrote on 2021-07-19, 11:32:

shortened*

So TNT2, Pro, Ultra > Rage 128 > TNT2 m64/Vanta/Vanta-16?

Regarding internal speaker - I thought, or misremembered, that it could have been used as a replacement for external speakers?
Like, just a shi**y quality mono speaker, but analog/PCM/WAV capable nonetheless, not just bleeps and bloops (aka not game specific)?

Regarding -5v, there is a mod for that if need be, right? Saw something on Phil's Lab, can't recall the name of it...

Regarding audio, so get a Vibra VX, YMF 719 (ISA version), and with ESS - is "higher number revision = better" or just go with the cheapest one?
Also, Phil recommended OPTi one as a very good solution?
I gotta ask, all three of these will produce some sort of sound in like all or almost all games?

In other news, do you perhaps have any idea about my 160mb RAM issue posted above?

Reply 67 of 88, by Joseph_Joestar

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2mg wrote on 2021-07-19, 12:51:

Also, Phil recommended OPTi one as a very good solution?

OPTi cards are nice, but I would rate their SBPro compatibility slightly below Yamaha and ESS cards. They also tend to be slightly more noisy.

On the plus side, their WSS compatibility is excellent and they produce crystal clear 16-bit sound in that mode. You might find this helpful: OPTi 82C930 review

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / OPTi 82C930 / AWE64
PC#2: Celeron 466 / Abit ZM6 / Voodoo3 / AWE64 Gold / YMF744 / SC-155
PC#3: AthlonXP 1700+ / Abit KT7A / GeForce4 / SBLive / ALS100
PC#4: Athlon64 3700+ / DFI LanParty / 9600GT / X-Fi Titanium

Reply 68 of 88, by BitWrangler

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2mg wrote on 2021-07-19, 12:51:

Regarding internal speaker - I thought, or misremembered, that it could have been used as a replacement for external speakers?
Like, just a shi**y quality mono speaker, but analog/PCM/WAV capable nonetheless, not just bleeps and bloops (aka not game specific)?

Yes, programmers could push sound out of it, depending on how much effort they felt like putting into it. They could only rely on a frequency response of something like 500-10,000 Hertz though or it turned into mumble-mush. Also on low spec hardware you just burned all the CPU cycles rattling the speaker diaphragm if you wanted to play a wav sample rather than something that could be represented algorithmically, like a beep. Windows 3.1 had the infamous speaker driver so all sounds that played in windows could be directed to the PC Speaker... results varied from "almost as good as a pocket sized radio" to hilariously bad.

Edit: Stuff I remember with speaker music, Titus the Fox, StarGoose (intro), Thunderstrike (intro), Prince of Persia, then of course the likes of Keen, Wolf3D, Doom all have a speaker sfx option.

Edit2: If you want an example put "play thunderstrike online" into google on modern system, no links because of verboten a-word. In some respects it sounds "better" through modern audio hardware because the highs are more distinct, but in other respects it's worse, because it's not "de-pixellated" like playing 8 bits on a slightly blurry TV CRT is, the edges are too sharp.

2017: Basement full of ancient PC stuff, starting to go through it. 2021: Still starting, heh, many setbacks. So what's this BitWrangler guy's deal ??? >>> Taming the pile, specs to target?

Reply 69 of 88, by chinny22

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2mg wrote on 2021-07-19, 12:51:

So TNT2, Pro, Ultra > Rage 128 > TNT2 m64/Vanta/Vanta-16?

Yep I'd go with that

2mg wrote on 2021-07-19, 12:51:

Regarding internal speaker - I thought, or misremembered, that it could have been used as a replacement for external speakers?
Like, just a shi**y quality mono speaker, but analog/PCM/WAV capable nonetheless, not just bleeps and bloops (aka not game specific)?

As BitWrangler said a driver exists for Windows, but not dos. Some OEM's like Compaq also did it though hardware so it even worked though dos (I think)
but it was more aimed at office PC's for basic sounds as now the the speaker is pretty limiting compared to even the cheapest desktop speakers.
I also forgot some soundcards do have a internal speaker header, this'll allow you to control the volume but not much else vs the motherboard header.

2mg wrote on 2021-07-19, 12:51:

Regarding -5v, there is a mod for that if need be, right? Saw something on Phil's Lab, can't recall the name of it...

Yeh I saw that video, Cant remember the name but it does exist which is cool but more use on much earlier PC's I think say like a 286.

2mg wrote on 2021-07-19, 12:51:

Regarding audio, so get a Vibra VX, YMF 719 (ISA version), and with ESS - is "higher number revision = better" or just go with the cheapest one?

Also, Phil recommended OPTi one as a very good solution?
I gotta ask, all three of these will produce some sort of sound in like all or almost all games?

I can't remember Phil's Opti video but if he says its good then I'd add it to the short list.
ESS1868 supports 44kHz (when you select AudioDrive is setup) The 1869 ups this to 48kHz. So later is better but unless your comparing side by side you'll probably would never notice
All cards in the short list will not only work in all games, they'll sound good in all games. It's more just down to cost, availability, personal preference now.

2mg wrote on 2021-07-19, 12:51:

In other news, do you perhaps have any idea about my 160mb RAM issue posted above?

Looking at your manual the motherboard is based off the VT82C693A (Apollo Pro 133) chipset.
This post seems to suggest you need the Apollo Pro 133A chipset for high density sticks? but I've never played with VIa based slot boards so if anyone says different I'd believe them over me!
Soyo Sy-7VBA133 1gb RAM upgrade

Reply 70 of 88, by cde

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2mg wrote on 2021-07-12, 19:57:
would it be possible to build a PC that would cover things from say ~1992 (think circa Doom 1) to ~1999 (think circa Unreal Tour […]
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would it be possible to build a PC that would cover things from say ~1992 (think circa Doom 1) to ~1999 (think circa Unreal Tournament/Diablo 2)?

I saw those Phil's X-in-1 computers, and read a bit around Vogons, the best thing appears to be the (Super)Socket7 K6-2/K6-3 or Pentium MMX.

Since I'm not looking for a perfect "it can run WC1/WC2/Wing Commander properly AND UT@60fps" unicorn, is the above the only combo that's worth it?
What about PIII underclocked and with disabled caches, just for an example?

Also, I need some schooling, does ISA,VLB,PCI, AGP matter here - would DOS see an AGP GPU? Can for example Carmageddon, Tomb Raider use Voodoo2 or Voodoo3 natively? Is it possible to have both a Glide GPU(+VGA if necessary) and an DX/OGL GPU?

Also, the prices for these Socket 7 MBOs and K6 CPUs seem way overpriced, or is it just my perception? Are there any "stand-in" cheaper alternatives?

Any info is appreciated!

My build uses a KT7a with an Athlon XP that has an unlocked multiplier, so it is very versatile in terms of speed CPU speed (down to 386 DX-40 levels at 500 MHz with L1 disabled).
Add a SB16 or ES1868F plus WP32 McCake : MT32 compatible waveblaster board and you'll have good compatible audio both for DOS and Windows 98. Unfortunately there are many SB16 models to choose from - I use the CT2290 w/ DSP 4.13, it has very low noise and no hanging note bug (haven't encountered single-cycle DMA clicks either).
Finally I have a Voodoo 3 PCI for DOS/Windows 98 and a GeForce 4200 Ti for Windows XP.
One issue I had was with Comanche which uses a 486-era instruction not available on newer processors (fortunately a patch is available).
For more info see Abit KT7A (KT133A/VIA686B), Athlon XP Mobile 2500+

Last edited by cde on 2021-07-19, 17:03. Edited 3 times in total.

Reply 71 of 88, by cde

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2mg wrote on 2021-07-19, 12:51:

Regarding audio, so get a Vibra VX, YMF 719 (ISA version), and with ESS - is "higher number revision = better" or just go with the cheapest one?

I think if your main target is DOS then the ES1868F is preferable since it is 44.1 Khz and hence can deal with 11/22 KHz and CD audio without resampling.

For later Windows XP games the ES1869F being 48 KHz would be more compatible.

Reply 72 of 88, by 2mg

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chinny22 wrote on 2021-07-19, 15:51:

Looking at your manual the motherboard is based off the VT82C693A (Apollo Pro 133) chipset.
This post seems to suggest you need the Apollo Pro 133A chipset for high density sticks? but I've never played with VIa based slot boards so if anyone says different I'd believe them over me!
Soyo Sy-7VBA133 1gb RAM upgrade

Now you lost me, ELI5 me:
- sorry for nagging, my retro know how is as rusty as an OC'd P4's thermal paste, and I've been spoiled by modern PnP tech 😀
- what is and what isn't "high density"?
- how does that relate to SIMM, and DIMM, and what's their difference?
- and how does that tie in to "double-sided" and "single-sided" memory?
- which one exactly would I need for this "32MBx64/x72 - 256MB" Mobo to accept one?
- what is 32MBx64/x72's meaning?
- if I opt for 3x128MB, do I get some old school tech analogue to the modern Dual Channel Mode?
- same question as with 256mb - what kind of a 128MB stick would work?

chinny22 wrote on 2021-07-19, 15:51:

All cards in the short list will not only work in all games, they'll sound good in all games. It's more just down to cost, availability, personal preference now.

These cover the SB, OPL3, PCM/WAV, prolly MPU?. I'm guessing SB also means AdLib. What about Gravis/GUS?

cde wrote on 2021-07-19, 17:00:

I think if your main target is DOS then the ES1868F is preferable since it is 44.1 Khz and hence can deal with 11/22 KHz and CD audio without resampling.

For later Windows XP games the ES1869F being 48 KHz would be more compatible.

There is also the "ES1688F / ES968F" if it matters?
And is resampling that bad? I mean, can't it switch to lower KHz mode?

BitWrangler wrote on 2021-07-19, 13:43:

Edit: Stuff I remember with speaker music, Titus the Fox, StarGoose (intro), Thunderstrike (intro), Prince of Persia, then of course the likes of Keen, Wolf3D, Doom all have a speaker sfx option.

I could've sworn I remember some of these having sounds on old PCs without external speakers. Can't remember if it was PCM or just beeps tho...

Reply 73 of 88, by Oetker

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2mg wrote on 2021-07-19, 18:58:
Now you lost me, ELI5 me: - sorry for nagging, my retro know how is as rusty as an OC'd P4's thermal paste, and I've been spoile […]
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chinny22 wrote on 2021-07-19, 15:51:

Looking at your manual the motherboard is based off the VT82C693A (Apollo Pro 133) chipset.
This post seems to suggest you need the Apollo Pro 133A chipset for high density sticks? but I've never played with VIa based slot boards so if anyone says different I'd believe them over me!
Soyo Sy-7VBA133 1gb RAM upgrade

Now you lost me, ELI5 me:
- sorry for nagging, my retro know how is as rusty as an OC'd P4's thermal paste, and I've been spoiled by modern PnP tech 😀
- what is and what isn't "high density"?
- how does that relate to SIMM, and DIMM, and what's their difference?
- and how does that tie in to "double-sided" and "single-sided" memory?
- which one exactly would I need for this "32MBx64/x72 - 256MB" Mobo to accept one?
- what is 32MBx64/x72's meaning?
- if I opt for 3x128MB, do I get some old school tech analogue to the modern Dual Channel Mode?
- same question as with 256mb - what kind of a 128MB stick would work?

SIMM and DIMM is more of a form factor. I guess high density depends on the context of the chipset you're dealing with, but with ~P3 systems it means more than 128MB per side. I think the x64/x72 only means non-parity/parity and doesn't talk about the amount of chips. Your chipset doesn't have anything like dual channel.

chinny22 wrote on 2021-07-19, 15:51:

All cards in the short list will not only work in all games, they'll sound good in all games. It's more just down to cost, availability, personal preference now.

These cover the SB, OPL3, PCM/WAV, prolly MPU?. I'm guessing SB also means AdLib. What about Gravis/GUS?

OPL=Adlib. As he said, those are all good choices. I like Aztech cards, ESS is fine too. GUS is very expensive and only useful for specific games/demos, its 'normal' midi playback isn't anything special.

I could've sworn I remember some of these having sounds on old PCs without external speakers. Can't remember if it was PCM or just beeps tho...

As he said, some OEM systems can use a built-in speaker for normal audio if no other speakers are connected.

Reply 74 of 88, by cde

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2mg wrote on 2021-07-19, 18:58:
cde wrote on 2021-07-19, 17:00:

I think if your main target is DOS then the ES1868F is preferable since it is 44.1 Khz and hence can deal with 11/22 KHz and CD audio without resampling.

For later Windows XP games the ES1869F being 48 KHz would be more compatible.

There is also the "ES1688F / ES968F" if it matters?
And is resampling that bad? I mean, can't it switch to lower KHz mode?

That's a good point. Looking at this datasheet https://www.philscomputerlab.com/uploads/3/7/ … 9techmanual.pdf I read "The DAC accepts data at standard audio frequencies including 48 kHz, 44.1 kHz, 32 kHz, and 22 kHz.". So in all likelyhood that chip is good for DOS as well.

Note that the ES1868F/ES1869F only have Sound Blaster Pro 2 compatibility, ie. they can't emulate a SB16. Which is probably fine anyway, I don't think there are many games that absolutely require 44.1 Khz stereo sound.

Reply 75 of 88, by 2mg

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Oetker wrote on 2021-07-19, 20:08:

SIMM and DIMM is more of a form factor. I guess high density depends on the context of the chipset you're dealing with, but with ~P3 systems it means more than 128MB per side. I think the x64/x72 only means non-parity/parity and doesn't talk about the amount of chips. Your chipset doesn't have anything like dual channel.

So, I need DUAL-sided 256MB sticks for 512-768MB setup (overkill for W98), or SINGLE-sided 256mb sticks for 386MB setup (more than enough for W98) and be done with it?

Reply 76 of 88, by Oetker

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Win98 doesn't like more than 512MB without a patch. Buying single-sided 256MB sticks only to use them half seems like a waste, though maybe you could use them in another machine in the future. But you could just as well buy 128MB sticks.
Being as you've got 3 slots you do need at least one 256MB module to get 512MB.

See also Re: Computer only detects half the RAM

Reply 77 of 88, by 2mg

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Oetker wrote on 2021-07-20, 08:13:

Win98 doesn't like more than 512MB without a patch. Buying single-sided 256MB sticks only to use them half seems like a waste, though maybe you could use them in another machine in the future. But you could just as well buy 128MB sticks.
Being as you've got 3 slots you do need at least one 256MB module to get 512MB.

See also Re: Computer only detects half the RAM

Thing is, 256mb and 128mb are readily available and usually the similar price, but yeah I get your point, especially if I'm looking for 2x/3x kits for max compatibility.

So 3x128mb (which is absolutely fine for a 90s machine anyway), and/or find dual-sided 256mb?

Reply 78 of 88, by chinny22

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This era and RAM still makes my brain hurt trying to work it all out to this day as well!
Think Oetker has you pretty much on the right track and while its a waste to only use half of your currant 256MB stick, its not going to hurt and you already own it. (I like 0 cost options)

Personally I use KVR133X64C3/256 on my Slot 1 rig's and should work for you. It's not anything special but it's Kingston so shouldn't be terrible and more important it's common enough to always be available.
As you say 256MB is fine, If you reach that with 1,2 or 3 sticks doesn't really matter. 512MB is nice but unnecessary. I've got 768MB which only gives me bragging rights and compatibility issues 😜

cde wrote on 2021-07-19, 22:01:

Note that the ES1868F/ES1869F only have Sound Blaster Pro 2 compatibility, ie. they can't emulate a SB16. Which is probably fine anyway, I don't think there are many games that absolutely require 44.1 Khz stereo sound.

Selecting the ESS Audiodrive option in games should bring you up to to SB16/44.1Khz but as you say it's not a big deal anyway.

Reply 79 of 88, by GigAHerZ

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For "no fuzz dos+win98 machine", i have been getting components for some kind of machine like that:

Socket 370 Pentium 3
mATX board with integrated ESS Solo-1 sound (saves a slot), AGP slot and at least one ISA slot
Some kind of GeForce 2 based video

Not maybe the most authentic, yet i can still experiment with all kinds of dos and windows setups and do it fast. Fallback is a Slot-1 based machine with Pentium 2, with all other requirements the same.

I have yet to put this machine together, so maybe i'm missing something here that will come out later with experience. But for now, i think that would be a nice machine. 😀

"640K ought to be enough for anybody." - And i intend to get every last bit out of it even after loading every damn driver!