Shponglefan wrote on 2024-06-23, 15:13:

AWE64 doesn't have a wavetable header. It's an unfortunate limitation on an otherwise good sound card.

And I'm okay with sound card debate here. I mean, this build is about sticking a whole bunch of sound cards in one PC so it seems topical. 😁

OK then. 😀
I wasn't refering to the AWE64. I was talking about my preference for a SBpro clone with a wavetable header. I know the AWE64 doesn't have one, otherwise things would be much easier.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-06-23, 16:03:

older AWE32 cards used genuine Yamaha chips for FM synthesis whereas later cards used Creative Labs own CQM synthesis, so FM playback will sound different. Different models have different DSP chips (some are noisier than others). Some have the DMA clicking bug. Etc.

My preference is to go with an AWE64 for SB16/AWE32 support, then supplement other sound support (FM / MIDI, etc) with another card.

This is pretty well the conclusion I arrived at too. About 15-20 years ago, when old soundcards mainly costed just postage, I bought several Soundblasters. Most of them turned out to be "useless". I only kept four for later(TM) use. Of these chosen four, just two remained usefull. I still see good use for the Awe64 gold, but I wouldn't buy one at current prices. Got an AWE64 value (512kB) the other day for a good price. I also still see limited use for the AWE32 CT3980, because it has OPL3, wavetable header with only 'legitimate hanging notes bug', and the 1703-A type mixer. I didn't know about the DMA clicking at the time. Glad I didn't, as the thing grew extremely expensive and I have a special "just one ISA" use case.
I also got the AWE32 CT-2760 rev3, which fills the same bill as the CT3980, except for a knockout difference: It has the 1701-T chip, which is very noisy. So I am not using it. Then I have the SB CT-1740 DSP 4.04, which is a dream card on paper. As long as you don't listen to it. Sounds like an old record that was used by kids a lot. For quick, driver free testing, it is OK. But to use it myself? God forbid.

Without a partner, none of the two useful cards will do it. They both need a SBpro partner to do the full job. The AWE32 needs 8 bit voice to avoid DMA clicking and the AWE64 needs some decent FM and a wavetable header. For both, I have settled on ESS SBpro clones. I haven't tried all SBpro clones (daunting task), but these are close enough. I have tried Yamaha-719, but I didn't like the sound/filtering nearly as much as the ESS or genuine AWE32 OPL3.

After conversing with you, I briefly experimented with 3 ISA cards in one machine, but realized that I just have no need or nerve for more than two. With two, I can get all the basics covered that matter to me while keeping it relatively simple.

If you turn off the on-board amplifier and use external one of decent quality instead, that will take care of the noise.
The result is very good considering the consumer grade electronics.

ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-23, 17:06:

OK then. 😀
I wasn't refering to the AWE64. I was talking about my preference for a SBpro clone with a wavetable header. I know the AWE64 doesn't have one, otherwise things would be much easier.

My apologies, I misread the conversation and was confused about which sound card(s) were being discussed. 😅

I also got the AWE32 CT-2760 rev3, which fills the same bill as the CT3980, except for a knockout difference: It has the 1701-T chip, which is very noisy. So I am not using it. Then I have the SB CT-1740 DSP 4.04, which is a dream card on paper. As long as you don't listen to it. Sounds like an old record that was used by kids a lot. For quick, driver free testing, it is OK. But to use it myself? God forbid.

I do use older Sound Blasters (including the CT-2760) in my 'period correct' builds. There is a bit of nostalgia experiencing those older cards, noise and all. Plus it makes one appreciate higher quality sound cards. 😁

After conversing with you, I briefly experimented with 3 ISA cards in one machine, but realized that I just have no need or nerve for more than two. With two, I can get all the basics covered that matter to me while keeping it relatively simple.

That's the way to do it. Everyone's requirements will be different, so testing things and figuring out what works is the best way.

I tend to use at least 3 because I always want at least one GUS card in my builds.

pshipkov wrote on 2024-06-23, 22:40:

If you turn off the on-board amplifier and use external one of decent quality instead, that will take care of the noise.
The result is very good considering the consumer grade electronics.

I have turned off the onboard amplifiers! And no, that will not take care of the noise on many cards. It will not even take care of the hiss on some.
The result varies strongly, usually exactly along the lines outlined by others here or in other review sites before. It is usually an inherent trait of the card. The deciding parameters (chip models) are often known.
And everyone has their own tolerances. Mine are unfortunately incompatible with a SB CT-1740. An ESS 688 however does make the cut.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-06-24, 01:06:

I do use older Sound Blasters (including the CT-2760) in my 'period correct' builds. There is a bit of nostalgia experiencing those older cards, noise and all. Plus it makes one appreciate higher quality sound cards. 😁

Doesn't work that way for me. I appreciated higher quality sound cards, since I can afford them, which coincided with the release of the AWE64 gold. It was the first card I could actually connect to my high grade Stereo system back then without going crazy about the hiss. Wasn't perfect, but OK. I have no positive nostalgia for SB32, just nostalgic disgust. 😉

Awe64 fm with possibility to play with reverb and chorus is amazing, spend hours finding per game levels to have a i credible fm sound

After test a awe64 for first time i never use any other sound blaster card in any 486+ anymore

theelf wrote on 2024-06-24, 06:53:

Awe64 fm with possibility to play with reverb and chorus is amazing, spend hours finding per game levels to have a i credible fm sound

After test a awe64 for first time i never use any other sound blaster card in any 486+ anymore

This is interesting information. I have 2 AWE64's (value not gold), and I didn't think much of those until I saw this discussion, I have lovely nostalgic feelings for SB32/AWE32 because of their specific MIDI playback sound. 😀

Now I'm thinking of adding AWE64 next to 32 in the same PC. Just need to figure out a switch so I don't need to swap the sound cable every time I want to use the other card. In the past I once sent one card output through the other ("master") card's line-in, but I'm not sure yet how it will work with these, especially in MS-DOS.

SGM wrote on 2024-06-24, 07:05:

theelf wrote on 2024-06-24, 06:53:

Awe64 fm with possibility to play with reverb and chorus is amazing, spend hours finding per game levels to have a i credible fm sound

After test a awe64 for first time i never use any other sound blaster card in any 486+ anymore

This is interesting information. I have 2 AWE64's (value not gold), and I didn't think much of those until I saw this discussion, I have lovely nostalgic feelings for SB32/AWE32 because of their specific MIDI playback sound. 😀

Now I'm thinking of adding AWE64 next to 32 in the same PC. Just need to figure out a switch so I don't need to swap the sound cable every time I want to use the other card. In the past I once sent one card output through the other ("master") card's line-in, but I'm not sure yet how it will work with these, especially in MS-DOS.

I really like jill of the jungle games, always played when kid with a ESS card

When i bought the awe64 years later, and i found correct rever/chorus levels for the game, i was so amazed that dont sound like same game. I played all 3 episodes again just to feel the upgraded music jeje

Happen same to me with all games, very nice card to play, specially aweutil, is a hit and miss, but funny to test sound banks and games too

theelf wrote on 2024-06-24, 06:53:

After test a awe64 for first time i never use any other sound blaster card in any 486+ anymore

Basically the same here. IF I use a soundblaster, then an AWE64. Everything else is more compromise.
The only exception to this is a pentium mmx, where I only have one ISA and good onboard SBpro already. There I use an AWE32 CT3980 for wavetable AND SB16 compatibility.
But that particular AWE is way more expensive than an AWE64, so it would not be solution in cases with 2x ISA.

However, I don't use an AWE64 in a 486. There, I prefer a good SBpro clone with wavetable.

SGM wrote on 2024-06-24, 07:05:

Now I'm thinking of adding AWE64 next to 32 in the same PC. Just need to figure out a switch so I don't need to swap the sound cable every time I want to use the other card. In the past I once sent one card output through the other ("master") card's line-in, but I'm not sure yet how it will work with these, especially in MS-DOS.

Unisound will allow you to do this, if both are PNP cards. And feeding via line in is easy too.

ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-24, 10:16:

However, I don't use an AWE64 in a 486. There, I prefer a good SBpro clone with wavetable.

The problems of SB pro is that only 8bit sound. Many people, including me, use computers much more to other stuff than gaming (in fact, i dont play much). A SB16 card is a must for some module player for example, I cant live without module music, and while some clones can do 16bit in WSS mode, is not widely compatible in DOS

theelf wrote on 2024-06-24, 11:09:

ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-24, 10:16:

However, I don't use an AWE64 in a 486. There, I prefer a good SBpro clone with wavetable.

The problems of SB pro is that only 8bit sound. Many people, including me, use computers much more to other stuff than gaming (in fact, i dont play much). A SB16 card is a must for some module player for example, I cant live without module music, and while some clones can do 16bit in WSS mode, is not widely compatible in DOS

Fair enough, I don't even know what module music is. 😀

ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-24, 12:20:

Fair enough, I don't even know what module music is. 😀

Maybe external modules like Roland MT-32 or Sound Canvas? I have a music studio, half of my synths are "modules" so this is my guess. 😀

SGM wrote on 2024-06-24, 12:24:

ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-24, 12:20:

Fair enough, I don't even know what module music is. 😀

Maybe external modules like Roland MT-32 or Sound Canvas? I have a music studio, half of my synths are "modules" so this is my guess. 😀

I assume they are talking about tracker-based music (.MOD, .S3M., .IT).

theelf wrote on 2024-06-24, 11:09:

The problems of SB pro is that only 8bit sound. Many people, including me, use computers much more to other stuff than gaming (in fact, i dont play much). A SB16 card is a must for some module player for example, I cant live without module music, and while some clones can do 16bit in WSS mode, is not widely compatible in DOS

By module music, I assume you mean things like tracker based MOD files (and S3M, IT, etc.)?

For those and demoscene stuff, I like to always include a Gravis Ultrasound card. Depending on the application, it can also take advantage of hardware mixing.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-06-24, 12:28:

theelf wrote on 2024-06-24, 11:09:

The problems of SB pro is that only 8bit sound. Many people, including me, use computers much more to other stuff than gaming (in fact, i dont play much). A SB16 card is a must for some module player for example, I cant live without module music, and while some clones can do 16bit in WSS mode, is not widely compatible in DOS

By module music, I assume you mean things like tracker based MOD files (and S3M, IT, etc.)?

For those and demoscene stuff, I like to always include a Gravis Ultrasound card. Depending on the application, it can also take advantage of hardware mixing.

Yes, s3m, mod, etc for modules and low spec cpu, a awe with 4mb+ ram is amazing, because can do all in hardware. I paired a awe64 gold in a 386 and is amazing how can play even complex IT modules

I have over 30GB modules in my 486 PC, love mmp software, is amazing, and sb16 is a must. http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/programs/Multi_Module_Player/ my 5x86 120mhz is able to play in software very complex it or s3m, with even 2x or 3x low pass filter, antialias, sorround and oversampling

Demoscene i will like to have a GUS! sadly i dont have one to test, i know is great for this, have many demos waiting to test one day i found a gus

theelf wrote on 2024-06-24, 12:35:

Yes, s3m, mod, etc for modules and low spec cpu, a awe with 4mb+ ram is amazing, because can do all in hardware. I paired a awe64 gold in a 386 and is amazing how can play even complex IT modules

I always forget the AWE32/64 can do mixing in hardware with Impulse Tracker. I've got an AWE64 in my 486 DX-33, I should give that a try some time. 😁

I have over 30GB modules in my 486 PC, love mmp software, is amazing, and sb16 is a must. http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/programs/Multi_Module_Player/ my 5x86 120mhz is able to play in software very complex it or s3m, with even 2x or 3x low pass filter, antialias, sorround and oversampling

Over 30 GB??? Wow! 😮

Demoscene i will like to have a GUS! sadly i dont have one to test, i know is great for this, have many demos waiting to test one day i found a gus

There is always the PicoGUS! It's at least available and relatively affordable compared to most GUS cards.

Minor update to this build.

The AWE32 CT3980 I was using in this build had damaged RAM sockets. I recently replaced them with a new socket that uses metal clips and added 8 MB of RAM to the AWE32.

I am currently using UNISOUND for the AWE32 which as I understand, I don't think it supports Soundfonts? I did try using AWEUTIL but got a MIDI error.

I did test the RAM with Impulse Tracker though and it worked fine there.

I'm still not sure what I'll do with RAM expansion on the AWE32 in this build. I could install the Creative Labs drivers for sound font support, although I know it's not overly useful under DOS. I've also debated doing a Win95 install for this build, but given it's only a 486, I don't know how useful it would be either.

I could also upgrade to the Pentium Overdrive (83 MHz). I'd probably boost the system RAM to 32MB if I went that route.

Nice, those plastic clips are horrible.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-10-31, 01:11:

I'm still not sure what I'll do with RAM expansion on the AWE32 in this build.

You mean you have to actually use the RAM? I've upgraded to the full 32MB but never really used it, but damn it looks sexy!

I find booting into Win95 on a 486 is useful for file management and networking. Everything else gets done in dos still.
Just depends if I want a "pure" Dos/Win3x build or more user freindly WIn95 GUI

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-10-31, 01:11:

I did try using AWEUTIL but got a MIDI error.

This reminded me that I always see "ERR012: AWE initialization failed." below the AWEUTIL info text, when I boot to Windows 95 (the text behind the cloudy Win95 boot picture). But the card works perfectly fine with Win95 and all the DOS games I played via Win95, and it shows no errors. I have 8 Mb RAM installed on the card.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-10-31, 01:11:

I'm still not sure what I'll do with RAM expansion on the AWE32 in this build. I could install the Creative Labs drivers for sound font support, although I know it's not overly useful under DOS. I've also debated doing a Win95 install for this build, but given it's only a 486, I don't know how useful it would be either.

There are a few DOS games that ship with custom soundfonts, which will be used automatically on AWE cards with sufficient memory. Magic Carpet 2, Hi-Octane and Eradicator are some notable examples.

As I recall, Eradicator can even load .SF2 soundfonts in pure DOS, which is quite rare.

chinny22 wrote on 2024-10-31, 02:21:

Nice, those plastic clips are horrible.

Agreed! I wish Creative had just used metal clips to begin with, but I guess they went for the cheapest option.

You mean you have to actually use the RAM? I've upgraded to the full 32MB but never really used it, but damn it looks sexy!

🤣 Agreed, it does look a lot better with RAM in those slots.

I find booting into Win95 on a 486 is useful for file management and networking. Everything else gets done in dos still.
Just depends if I want a "pure" Dos/Win3x build or more user freindly WIn95 GUI

Since I'm using a CF card, if I need to do anything in Windows re: file management, I can just plug it into my modern PC.

Normally I'd also do a separate install and just swap CF cards, but since this one is internal to the system, it's a bit more of a pain.